Creationists Go Round And Round

[AleHop 0]

What's your point? You have sex because it makes you feel good and that is nothing more than repeated chants. And that's with sheep too

[Max Mosley 2]

No matter how much do you study the bible you won't understand it without the revelation from the Holly Spirit, there ar many religions that call themselves chrystians but they have never expereince the baptizm of the Holly Spirit, they ggot a lot of knowledge from the bible but they don't right the right meaning, I became an atheist by reading the bible, i found in there so many thing that from my point of views were just imposible and I by myself discarded the idea of a God, natural men can not understand spiritual things because for the natural man the things form the spirit are senseless, something like that is that the bible says about it, just after I recieved the Holly Spirit I am being able to understand many things, sometimes I read the bible and don't pay much attention to a certain passage and later I get the full meaning of that passage that I was not even paying attention to it, that's the work of the holly Spirit.

Hmm. I don't think we're really getting anywhere in this discussion Schumikonen, and I don't think you've really answered the questions. On your points above, I would say that perhaps what you think of as the Holy Spirit is really an evil spirit trying (successfully) to trick you. All your quotes from the Bible are useless because perhaps the evil spirits have altered the Bible too. And don't give me a quote from the Bible where it says evil spirits can't alter the Bible, because obviously that's what they want you to think - the evil spirits might have inserted all the quotes you just gave into the Bible. If you think that an evil spirit can brainwash people as Derren Brown did, but won't do it to you because it says they won't in a book, then you're falling for the oldest trick in the....... book.

All the religious experiences, miracles, visions, prophesies and Bible quotes you have ever had, seen, or read in your life could be the work of evil spirits. Perhaps God doesn't bother stopping them because He expects you to do what you personally think is right without having to be told to do so.

Apart from those objections, I am also no clearer about what the Bible even offers us in terms of moral guidance. You seem to pretty much do what you thought was right anyway, and there seems little in the Bible about how to tackle AIDS in Africa or stem cell research or the legalisation of hard drugs or....

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

If you think that an evil spirit can brainwash people as Derren Brown did, but won't do it to you because it says they won't in a book, then you're falling for the oldest trick in the....... book.

Ah but what if you are an evil spirit Muzza??? lol

[Schumikonen 2]

Apart from those objections, I am also no clearer about what the Bible even offers us in terms of moral guidance. You seem to pretty much do what you thought was right anyway, and there seems little in the Bible about how to tackle AIDS in Africa or stem cell research or the legalisation of hard drugs or....

AIDS are spreading because people is not following God's direction ilicit sexual contact is the main cause of AIDS spreading, if you have only one couple and you don't get in sex until your married ten is very unlikely to get infected with AIDS, or anything like that, I can tell you about a disease that was spread in Europe and was killing a lot of people but it was not touching jews because they were following was the bible said about higiene, that info may be useless to you but is the truth that is in history not in the bible, jews were acused of spreding the disease becaue they were not affected and a lot of them were killed because of that, thoses rules have thousands of year many years before science said is healthy to do so.

[Schumikonen 2]

Hmm. I don't think we're really getting anywhere in this discussion Schumikonen, and I don't think you've really answered the questions. On your points above, I would say that perhaps what you think of as the Holy Spirit is really an evil spirit trying (successfully) to trick you. All your quotes from the Bible are useless because perhaps the evil spirits have altered the Bible too. And don't give me a quote from the Bible where it says evil spirits can't alter the Bible, because obviously that's what they want you to think - the evil spirits might have inserted all the quotes you just gave into the Bible. If you think that an evil spirit can brainwash people as Derren Brown did, but won't do it to you because it says they won't in a book, then you're falling for the oldest trick in the....... book.

All the religious experiences, miracles, visions, prophesies and Bible quotes you have ever had, seen, or read in your life could be the work of evil spirits. Perhaps God doesn't bother stopping them because He expects you to do what you personally think is right without having to be told to do so.

I think you are not reading my post I already told you they can do that and they have tried to do it what you explain would be a valid concern if they were alone but we have another side of the spirtual world which is working against them, and what you don't understand is the difference between religion and having a personal relationship with God which the most important thing a person can have, God can work in your life even if you don't know how to read so reading the bible is not the most important thing, what is really important is to get closer to God, to get in contact with him and let him work in your life, like you said the are many debates about the meaning of some things in the bible but the work of the Holly Spirit, like Jesus said is to teach us about what we need to be safe, I already told you that in the bible you can even find satan's word but the work of the Holly Spirit is to lead us to the truth.

Maybe you are right, we are not getting anywere with this discussion but we did got to the point of knowing that science don't know how we got here, science is right now lacking of enough info to be sure that evolution work for itself, evolution is just what you want to believe and even when you don't understand it you believe it, you are waiting for that final evidence like we are waiting for Jesus, you like us have many unanswered question but you stick to science anyway like we stick to God, at the end one side will be right but given that no side have the answer right i guess a peace treaty would be good while thoses answers are found.

[Ash1 0]

Does carbon dating prove the Earth is millions of years old?

Whenever the worldview of evolution is questioned, this topic always comes up. Let me first explain how carbon dating works and then show you the assumptions it is based on. Radiation from the sun strikes the atmosphere of the earth all day long. This energy converts about 21 pounds of nitrogen into radioactive carbon 14. This radioactive carbon 14 slowly decays back into normal, stable nitrogen. Extensive laboratory testing has shown that about half of the C-14 molecules will decay in 5730 years. This is called the half-life. After another 5730 years half of the remaining C-14 will decay leaving only

[Max Mosley 2]

I think you are not reading my post I already told you they can do that and they have tried to do it what you explain would be a valid concern if they were alone but we have another side of the spirtual world which is working against them, and what you don't understand is the difference between religion and having a personal relationship with God which the most important thing a person can have, God can work in your life even if you don't know how to read so reading the bible is not the most important thing, what is really important is to get closer to God, to get in contact with him and let him work in your life, like you said the are many debates about the meaning of some things in the bible but the work of the Holly Spirit, like Jesus said is to teach us about what we need to be safe, I already told you that in the bible you can even find satan's word but the work of the Holly Spirit is to lead us to the truth.

Your personal relationship with God is actually with an evil spirit. The evil spirit is pretending to be God.

AIDS are spreading because people is not following God's direction ilicit sexual contact is the main cause of AIDS spreading, if you have only one couple and you don't get in sex until your married ten is very unlikely to get infected with AIDS, or anything like that, I can tell you about a disease that was spread in Europe and was killing a lot of people but it was not touching jews because they were following was the bible said about higiene, that info may be useless to you but is the truth that is in history not in the bible, jews were acused of spreding the disease becaue they were not affected and a lot of them were killed because of that, thoses rules have thousands of year many years before science said is healthy to do so.

Preaching that message to Africa (and America btw) has worsened the spread of AIDS because it is obvious that people will take no notice. Many innocent people have died as a result, for example orphans whose parents didn't follow your advice, or wives of men who became infected via prostitutes.

Maybe you are right, we are not getting anywere with this discussion but we did got to the point of knowing that science don't know how we got here, science is right now lacking of enough info to be sure that evolution work for itself, evolution is just what you want to believe and even when you don't understand it you believe it, you are waiting for that final evidence like we are waiting for Jesus, you like us have many unanswered question but you stick to science anyway like we stick to God, at the end one side will be right but given that no side have the answer right i guess a peace treaty would be good while thoses answers are found.

No. We've been through this a thousand times and you still don't understand. Whether evolution is true or not has nothing to do with God's existence at all.

Ah but what if you are an evil spirit Muzza??? lol

I must be!

[Ash1 0]

No Chance of Life by Chance

In the 1700's many scientists believed that life spontaneously generated from non-living matter (such as raw meat or sewage). In the 1800's, using careful experimentation, Louis Pasteur proved this concept wrong and verified that life only comes from previously existing life. Ironically, many scientists have once again returned to the belief that life came from non-life. . . in spite of the fact that there is no experimental evidence to show how that could have happened. The reason this unsupported belief has returned is that science has been defined as to eliminate the consideration of the only other alternative-the creation of life by an intelligent designer.

This article is one of many found within Mr. Malone's excellent book, Search for the Truth.

Even the simplest living cell is an incredibly complex machine. It must be capable of detecting malfunctions, repairing itself, and making copies of itself. Man has never succeeded in building a machine capable of these same functions. Yet most scientists accept the belief that life arose from non-life (in spite of the evidence clearly indicating that it did not and could not happen). This incredible belief is as absurd as finding a complex chemical manufacturing facility on Mars and assuming that it built itself.

One classic experiment which is used to support the belief that life "built itself" is an experiment by Stanley Miller in 1953. In this experiment sparks were discharged into an apparatus which was circulating common gases. These gases reacted to form various organic products which were collected and analyzed. The experiment succeeded in producing only a few of the 20 amino acids required by itself. Furthermore, the dozens of major problems with this experiment as an explanation for the formation of life are seldom reported.

For instance, our early atmosphere was assumed to have no oxygen because this would stop amino acid formation. However, with no oxygen, there would be no ozone shield. With no ozone shield, life would also be impossible. Furthermore, oxidized rocks throughout the geologic record indicate that oxygen has always been present.

In addition to this, the same gases which can react to form amino acids undergo known reactions in the presence of sunlight which remove them from the atmosphere. The required gases would not have been around long enough for life to have developed! In addition, a cold trap was used to keep the reaction products from being destroyed as fast as they formed.

The biggest problem is that the amino acids formed in this experiment are always a 50/50 mixture of stereotypes (L and D forms). Stereotypes are like a drawer full of right-hand and left-hand gloves, identical in every way except a mirror image of each other. Life contains only L stereotypes of these randomly produced amino acids. Yet equal proportions of both types are always produced. How could the first cell have selected only L stereotypes from a random, equally reactive mixture? No answer to this has ever been found.

These are just a few of the problems with the fanciful idea that life generated itself. The linking of these randomly produced amino acids into the required proteins is an even more overwhelming impossibility.

No experiment has ever shown that matter has the ability to come alive. The best explanation for life is still that "life only comes from pre-existing life". As you search for truth, perhaps you should consider the possibility that the source of all life... is GOD.

[monza gorilla 1]

Does carbon dating prove the Earth is millions of years old?

Whenever the worldview of evolution is questioned, this topic always comes up. Let me first explain how carbon dating works and then show you the assumptions it is based on. Radiation from the sun strikes the atmosphere of the earth all day long. This energy converts about 21 pounds of nitrogen into radioactive carbon 14. This radioactive carbon 14 slowly decays back into normal, stable nitrogen. Extensive laboratory testing has shown that about half of the C-14 molecules will decay in 5730 years. This is called the half-life. After another 5730 years half of the remaining C-14 will decay leaving only

[Max Mosley 2]

Ash: as Andres has already pointed out, by copying and pasting articles that you can't understand, you are mainly achieving 3 things.

1. you're making yourself look ridiculous
   
2. you're giving more intelligent Christians like Schumikonen a bad name
   
3. you're making Christianity look like it's for stupid people
   

Ah, the cut and paste maestro is back.

Now discredit uranium thorium dating. Or rubidium strontium dating. Should keep you googling for a bit.

Don't forget humdrumium dating. Or balonium dating. Or KY Jellium dating. Ask your preacher if you get stuck.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Ah, the cut and paste maestro is back.

Now discredit uranium thorium dating. Or rubidium strontium dating. Should keep you googling for a bit.

yes MG, but the post does make sense....

[Ash1 0]

Marray, I understand it perfectly well. Obviously I would rather cut and paste and quote writers far superior to me or many here. Your choosing to read or not read what I cut and paste is entirely your choice.

Questions for Evolutionists

The test of any theory is whether or not it provides answers to basic questions. Some well-meaning, but misguided, people think evolution is a reasonable theory to explain man

[monza gorilla 1]

The post only makes sense, Brad, because there is no context to it. I would much rather hear what the poster thinks, than some cut out article with no comment or context. That post gives the wholly false impression that Carbon 14 dating is is the method used. I don't normally get involved in discussions like this, but a little balance would be welcome. To imply that the age of the earth is gauged by C14 dating is as close as you're going to get to a lie.

EDIT: due to cut and paste article insertion.

[monza gorilla 1]

What would you have said fifty years ago if I told you I had a living coelacanth in my aquarium?

I'd have said, gosh, that's rare. Since we've known that they were not extinct since 1938.......which is 70 years ago. You really should update your source material.

[Medilloni 6]

AIDS are spreading because people is not following God's direction ilicit sexual contact is the main cause of AIDS spreading, if you have only one couple and you don't get in sex until your married ten is very unlikely to get infected with AIDS, or anything like that, I can tell you about a disease that was spread in Europe and was killing a lot of people but it was not touching jews because they were following was the bible said about higiene, that info may be useless to you but is the truth that is in history not in the bible, jews were acused of spreding the disease becaue they were not affected and a lot of them were killed because of that, thoses rules have thousands of year many years before science said is healthy to do so.

If my dad had told me he'd give me something life-threatening if I didn't follow his teachings, he'd expect to lose my love and respect. He'd show me what was right and wrong, then stand back and watch. If I f***ked up, he might say he told me so, but he'd still put an arm around me and be there to help me recover from my mistakes.

So, if God is our Father (well, yours), I wish he'd ask His followers to stop telling the world their lives will be sh!t if he doesn't do as he says - it's not only bad Karma but from a marketing viewpoint, His ways just appear the same as all the other extreme believers of other religions ('follow me or be buggered'). He could do to find a Unique Selling Point really. Something like, "OK, you can have three goes at life and you're out", you know, not just one big hit - and certainly not this, "My way or the highway" attitude.

[Ash1 0]

I'd have said, gosh, that's rare. Since we've known that they were not extinct since 1938.......which is 70 years ago. You really should update your source material.

It actually does have a date on the source and yes, it was written some time ago.

Here's a little story I couldn't resist cutting and pasting ...

The Tale Of The Magic Rock Apes

Okay, now sit down now, boys and girls - it's story time! Shhhh.... Once upon a time, billions of years ago, there was nothing. Suddenly, magically, the nothing exploded into something. That something is called hydrogen. Can you say "hydrogen?" I knew you could. This hydrogen eventually cooled down enough to condense into solid rock. It was magic rock. Inert and lifeless, but still magical. And then, magically, water formed in the sky above the rock. The waters rained on the rock for, oh, let's say billions of years. Some of the rock broke down into minerals, and these minerals washed into a pool of water.

Then one day some of these minerals magically formed into a kind of goo in the pool of water. Can you say "goo?" I knew you could. Well do you know what happened then? That's right! The goo magically became ALIVE. So anyway, this bit of magic goo magically found something to eat. Then, magically, it found another bit of magic goo to marry, and they had a whole bunch of magical little goos. Eventually - millions of years later - some of this goo grew up into all the plants and animals in the world around us. If it's alive, it came from that first bit of magic goo! Well, more time went on. Finally some of this goo magically evolved - can you say "evolved?" I knew you could - some of this goo magically evolved upwards and upwards, growing ever more advanced, bigger, stronger, smarter, until it became a kind of magical hairless ape with thumbs.

And do you know who those apes are? That's right! They're YOU and ME! We are the magic rock apes! And you know what else? Someday we'll evolve enough that we'll become the God we all know doesn't exist. Now take a nap.

[Max Mosley 2]

yes MG, but the post does make sense....

MG was being his usual totally incomprehensible self! I think what he meant was that those assumptions scientists make in Carbon-14 dating can be checked against other types of radioactive dating, as well as other unrelated dating methods from biochemistry, fossils, geology, astronomy etc. The fact that all these totally independent methods agree very well suggests that the assumptions in Carbon-14 are probably justified.

Imagine measuring something (like the age of the Earth) many different ways and finding that you always got the same answer. Even if you weren't 100% sure about each measurement you made, if every single measurement agreed with every other, you would have good reason to trust your answer.

Marray, I understand it perfectly well.

Oh, in that case, I apologise. But by copying and pasting articles like that despite understanding them, you are mainly achieving 3 things.

1. you're making yourself look ridiculous
   
2. you're giving more intelligent Christians like Schumikonen a bad name
   
3. you're making Christianity look like it's for stupid people
   

[BradSpeedMan 6]

The post only makes sense, Brad, because there is no context to it. I would much rather hear what the poster thinks, than some cut out article with no comment or context. That post gives the wholly false impression that Carbon 14 dating is is the method used. I don't normally get involved in discussions like this, but a little balance would be welcome. To imply that the age of the earth is gauged by C14 dating is as close as you're going to get to a lie.

EDIT: due to cut and paste article insertion.

Thats exactly my point. General knowledge does'nt equate for accurate facts, we did'nt go Murray's (or a Cav) route in studying things like this in detail, how are we to "defend ourselves"... being a lawayer is different to being a graphic designer....we should have a christian here who's in this field

I hear you guys on the cut and copy point, and it does make sense.... but everybody is not a tutor in the crationist/evolution filed, espicially christians, who trust in belief...

[Ash1 0]

Murray, you should read more ....errr, maybe you shouldn't

[monza gorilla 1]

Thing is, I just don't much like it when people try to pass off lies as truth, and do it intentionally. It sort of goes against the grain. Anyway, since C14 is only of any use on organic matter, it ain't much good for telling you how old a rock is. Which is why that particular post is rubbish. If I'm going to post scientific theories, or try to debunk them, I like to do a little research first.

[Ash1 0]

The post only makes sense, Brad, because there is no context to it. I would much rather hear what the poster thinks, than some cut out article with no comment or context. That post gives the wholly false impression that Carbon 14 dating is is the method used. I don't normally get involved in discussions like this, but a little balance would be welcome. To imply that the age of the earth is gauged by C14 dating is as close as you're going to get to a lie.

EDIT: due to cut and paste article insertion.

Fair. It was an interlude to circular reasoning used by scientists to date fossil records. But I got sidetracked ...

Watch this space

[BradSpeedMan 6]

If my dad had told me he'd give me something life-threatening if I didn't follow his teachings, he'd expect to lose my love and respect. He'd show me what was right and wrong, then stand back and watch. If I f***ked up, he might say he told me so, but he'd still put an arm around me and be there to help me recover from my mistakes.

So, if God is our Father (well, yours), I wish he'd ask His followers to stop telling the world their lives will be sh!t if he doesn't do as he says - it's not only bad Karma but from a marketing viewpoint, His ways just appear the same as all the other extreme believers of other religions ('follow me or be buggered'). He could do to find a Unique Selling Point really. Something like, "OK, you can have three goes at life and you're out", you know, not just one big hit - and certainly not this, "My way or the highway" attitude.

good point. I've never tried converting anybody here into believing in God, I never do. I can only tell the truth from what I believe. There's many Christians who's attitude downright suck, this gives a fasle impression to the world. Many Christians do not actuallly "live the life" and have personal relationships with God. Do you know my best friends are atheist. Because christians have the ability to hurt you the most, I had to go throught that many times. I know Christians that even go as far as stealing tiths, the money we're suppose to give to God! Bu it will never stop me believing...personallly

The Word is true Med, it's some christians that really (escuse my langauge) **** it up!

[Ash1 0]

Thing is, I just don't much like it when people try to pass off lies as truth, and do it intentionally. It sort of goes against the grain. Anyway, since C14 is only of any use on organic matter, it ain't much good for telling you how old a rock is. Which is why that particular post is rubbish. If I'm going to post scientific theories, or try to debunk them, I like to do a little research first.

OK, then will you be able to answer those questions I pasted?

[pumpdoc 2]

Bahhhh Bahhh black sheep Bahhh Bahhh

[monza gorilla 1]

Bahhhh Bahhh black sheep Bahhh Bahhh

Black sheep black do you got some wool?

Yes I do man my bag is full......

copyright Billy Gibbons.