Creationists Go Round And Round

[LabradoRacer 2]

I studied Foreign Trade and work in Imports/Exports for an American eye care company.

Nothing too exciting, I know.

No offense meant, Andres, but I think you deserve a lot more. Your intelligence, sense of humor & general knowledge demand a far better recognition & reward.

[Minchia! 0]

This time I'll disagree with you.

I was thinking today while reading the thread how wonderful forums can be. This is a discussion over things people has killed each other for centuries. We are a bunch of people from countries most of us haven't heard about or cared about until a few years ago. Yet, in a forum (an F1 forum, nontheless!) our cultures are clashing like no other cultures have clashed since the europeans invaded america. And here we are, people with from totally different cultural backgrounds, with totally opposite views on many things, discussing one of the most sensible issues out there.

And yes, we grow impatient, we sometimes write vitriolic replies, sarcasm is more common than reasoning, but we read and learn and reply and even if no one changes their mind, we all will come out being a little wiser, for knowing better the other side's point of view if nothing else. And we all (well, almost all) end up making jokes together and no real harm is done to anybody. Religious people, not so religious ones, agnostics, atheists and rampant nihilists all end up joking around and laughing at each other and ourselves.

For this, I decree that forums and internet are men's gift to god

You obviously have not been to many internet forums, my friend . I've seen things on other forums that make me weep for humanity. I've seen reason, intelligence and tolerance wither and die. I've seen the English language brutalized, tortured and obliterated in a wave of "OMFG WTF R U TLKIN ABOUT!!!1111one GTFO! LOLZ BBQ!!!!"

Yes, this little collection of F1 fanatics is a rare gem indeed. It is an island of reality in an ocean of diarrhea. I swam in that ocean, sir, and my soul is forever soiled.

[AleHop 0]

I think perhaps you're talking about Zeno's paradox, which is very interesting. My brother just did an essay on it. But QM is real!

Exactly, it is Achilles and the tortoise or Kimi and Nando for you mates.

I know QM is real but most of its fantastic theories are based on infinites and infinitesimal calculus.

Most of the theories in What the bleed do we know? film are rubbish. Things doesn't work that way. They ask you where the ball is when you cannot see it and I ask them where is the world for a blind person? Doesn't exist? Is it somewhere or nowhere?

[dribbler 6]

No offense meant, Andres, but I think you deserve a lot more. Your intelligence, sense of humor & general knowledge demand a far better recognition & reward.

What, like being a toilet cleaner?

[Schumikonen 2]

Can you define then your experience of a real connection with God, and how you think it differs to say a buddhist monk's connection with the nature of mind?

When I say a real connection I mean a real connection to a real God, that God interact with you, talk to you, a God that can hear you and answer you, a God that takes care of your needs and that react to the things you do to get closer to him, one that makes real thoses thing you think are impossible, a God that saves you from danger, a God that lead your steps even when you want to go somewhere else, I am talking about things that God has done in my life, I can tell you about all thoses things and probably you will say that's the power on the mind adn I praise the lord for giving me a mind that can do that and for giving me what my mind need to do it.

I think I will be a little slow for a couple of days, I just bought Flight Simulator X Deluxe Edition, I don't know how to used but I plan to become a pilot so I will be trainning hard in my free time, but don't worry I'll be around during my work time.

[Quiet One 15]

Wow, so many fans!

@Brad: thank you! I am THAT good, I know.

@Paul: well, I tried to pose as a hairdressing model, but they didn't accept me. Because I'm jewish, I'm sure!

@Muzza: I am not in this for the money, believe me! My salary is low, even by Argentinian standards. It does not inspire too much respect or awe, but I like it. It is very demanding, though. I work for an ophtalmic laboratory. My job is to import medications and ophtalmologic equipment. That means a careful planning of routes, times, and an epic fight with airport authorities, the Ministry of Health, and general bureaucracy and corruption. Like I said, not too rewarding, not too exciting. But I still manage to enjoy whatever life I have left after work

@Jay: Likewise It's up to us!

@Minchia: you are right! I've lurked around some other F1 forums and even if it is not fair to compare them with this (because I only act as a voyeur there and only every once in a while) it still amazes me that most posts are one liners and there seems to be little exchange of ideas there. Still, they are better than killing each other.

@Steve: I actually thought about searching for anti personal mines...barefoot. It will be certainly less stressing.

[HandyNZL 1]

When I say a real connection I mean a real connection to a real God, that God interact with you, talk to you, a God that can hear you and answer you, a God that takes care of your needs and that react to the things you do to get closer to him, one that makes real thoses thing you think are impossible, a God that saves you from danger, a God that lead your steps even when you want to go somewhere else, I am talking about things that God has done in my life, I can tell you about all thoses things and probably you will say that's the power on the mind adn I praise the lord for giving me a mind that can do that and for giving me what my mind need to do it.

I think I will be a little slow for a couple of days, I just bought Flight Simulator X Deluxe Edition, I don't know how to used but I plan to become a pilot so I will be trainning hard in my free time, but don't worry I'll be around during my work time.

Sounds like a fair description of a bottle of whiskey?!?!?

[Jez 0]

When I say a real connection I mean a real connection to a real God, that God interact with you, talk to you, a God that can hear you and answer you, a God that takes care of your needs and that react to the things you do to get closer to him, one that makes real thoses thing you think are impossible, a God that saves you from danger, a God that lead your steps even when you want to go somewhere else, I am talking about things that God has done in my life, I can tell you about all thoses things and probably you will say that's the power on the mind adn I praise the lord for giving me a mind that can do that and for giving me what my mind need to do it.

I think I will be a little slow for a couple of days, I just bought Flight Simulator X Deluxe Edition, I don't know how to used but I plan to become a pilot so I will be trainning hard in my free time, but don't worry I'll be around during my work time.

I hear you. Some folks need/want that sort of guidance in their lives, others don't like the feeling of having their choices made for them. I guess it depends on how much you trust yourself to do what is right. One can have a God connection in their life while still enjoying the results of having used their God given ability to judge what is right for themselves.

[dribbler 6]

@Steve: I actually thought about searching for anti personal mines...barefoot. It will be certainly less stressing.

I wouldn't do that, Andres. It sounds pretty hair-raising. Hang on.....i think it may be the job for you.

[pabloh20 1]

I wouldn't do that, Andres. It sounds pretty hair-raising. Hang on.....i think it may be the job for you.

[Schumikonen 2]

I hear you. Some folks need/want that sort of guidance in their lives, others don't like the feeling of having their choices made for them. I guess it depends on how much you trust yourself to do what is right. One can have a God connection in their life while still enjoying the results of having used their God given ability to judge what is right for themselves.

I guess it is like that only that how do we know what is right or wrong? we need to have a point to judge that because there are things I would like to do and that I would do if I had no rule telling me that I should not do that, speeding is one of them, I don't go far beyond that limit because there are rules against that, I try to drive the best possible way obeying the rules, I now that is a good thing to do but I would like to do another thing not what the rule says, without that rule I would be driving as fast as I can, my judgement tells me that I can manage that speed that I would drive in that case so we need rules and we need rule and we need to trust the source of that rule to obey them, atheist don't obey God's rules because they don't trust the source, I obey them because I trust the source and the big difference is that we have a reward for obeying God's rules but we don't have any reward for obeying man's rules you only get the punishment for braking them I guess this is what makes this enjoyable.

[Max Mosley 2]

@Muzza: I am not in this for the money, believe me! My salary is low, even by Argentinian standards. It does not inspire too much respect or awe, but I like it. It is very demanding, though. I work for an ophtalmic laboratory. My job is to import medications and ophtalmologic equipment. That means a careful planning of routes, times, and an epic fight with airport authorities, the Ministry of Health, and general bureaucracy and corruption. Like I said, not too rewarding, not too exciting. But I still manage to enjoy whatever life I have left after work

Yeah. Well you're helping people, which must be rewarding in itself. I can't imagine you shouting at airport staff though!

I hear you. Some folks need/want that sort of guidance in their lives, others don't like the feeling of having their choices made for them. I guess it depends on how much you trust yourself to do what is right. One can have a God connection in their life while still enjoying the results of having used their God given ability to judge what is right for themselves.

Your problem, Jez, is that you're far too generous! I think Schumikonen's arguments are very poor here.

I guess it is like that only that how do we know what is right or wrong?

You have to look within yourself and decide for yourself. God gave you your conscience, so as long as you use it honestly and to the best of your ability, He can hardly judge you for using it.

How do you "know" the Bible is true in every regard? (Of course, you have already admitted that the version of the Bible available today isn't true in every regard!)

What would happen if God (in a vision) or the Bible told you to do something that you conscience told you not to do? Let's say hypothetically that the Bible or God told you to kill every black person. Would you do it? (For those that don't know, in the past God has told His followers to practice genocide.)

we need to have a point to judge that because there are things I would like to do and that I would do if I had no rule telling me that I should not do that, speeding is one of them, I don't go far beyond that limit because there are rules against that, I try to drive the best possible way obeying the rules, I now that is a good thing to do but I would like to do another thing not what the rule says, without that rule I would be driving as fast as I can, my judgement tells me that I can manage that speed that I would drive in that case so we need rules and we need rule and we need to trust the source of that rule to obey them

I bet you got that argument from a book or some preacher, but it's totally wrong. They are just misleading you. You don't need a rule to tell you to drive safely; you just need to do the right thing. You already know that driving too fast is dangerous, so don't do it. The fact that you would like to do another thing is irrelevant because you know it would be wrong.

atheist don't obey God's rules because they don't trust the source, I obey them because I trust the source and the big difference is that we have a reward for obeying God's rules but we don't have any reward for obeying man's rules you only get the punishment for braking them I guess this is what makes this enjoyable.

Nope. I think that if God exists He will reward people who did the right thing according to their God-given conscience. Doing things that you think are wrong, just because it says to in a book, is no morality at all. Doing those wrong things just so you get your "reward" from God is even worse. Honestly, I think there are few things less moral than that.

[dribbler 6]

I guess it is like that only that how do we know what is right or wrong? we need to have a point to judge that because there are things I would like to do and that I would do if I had no rule telling me that I should not do that, speeding is one of them, I don't go far beyond that limit because there are rules against that, I try to drive the best possible way obeying the rules, I now that is a good thing to do but I would like to do another thing not what the rule says, without that rule I would be driving as fast as I can, my judgement tells me that I can manage that speed that I would drive in that case so we need rules and we need rule and we need to trust the source of that rule to obey them, atheist don't obey God's rules because they don't trust the source, I obey them because I trust the source and the big difference is that we have a reward for obeying God's rules but we don't have any reward for obeying man's rules you only get the punishment for braking them I guess this is what makes this enjoyable.

Being kind, loving and generous to as many people as you can gives you a great reward. I don't need God in my life to be able to see that. It's common sense. As for the 'rules', i don't need something in my life that tells me i might be punished by going downstairs to the hot place if i live my life wrong. That's just fantasy fear. I'll be treated badly by others if i do that. That's the lesson you learn. That's something that is real. If i am bad to someone, their adverse reaction tells me that it is not the thing to do.

I have to say this, is God for people who really cannot grasp the fundamental principles of a sound set of morals? Why do you need God if you are happy with the way you are living your life and know that you are having a positive effect on the people around you? Why do you need God if when you get it wrong, you learn and know why it was wrong?

What is the 'need'? I'm fascinated.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

What is the 'need'? I'm fascinated.

Agree 100% Dribs.

The most common need in my experience is a fear of death (although rarely admitted to) and this is seen as a safe way out.

Fear is a human obsession and much played on by governments and religions (esp. where they both meet up). BTW Saw an older but excellent article from an expert highlighting the hype from government and media on the failed attempt to "bomb" Glasgow airport... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/02/te...diocy_outbreak/ Shows just how full of fear we all are these days...

Anyway, I digress, back to religion. Personally I don't wish to spend my life in fear and would rather occupy my mind with more positive and helpful thoughts.

[YHR 0]

Forget the religious side of the bible. Read it as a book of fiction if you like, but read it.

The Old testament Jobe 40: 15-19 (2000 years BC) talks of Behemoth's that walked the earth with a tail the size of cedars. So even if we say the Bible was thrown together by a bunch of folks who were drinking to much wine 800 years ago, they still wrote of something that we had no physical evidence of until hundreds of years later. The world being round, and the infinite expansion of space is documented in the bible thousands of years before science proved it to be true. Higher education and Universities all have roots to the Christian Church.

People forget how well the Bible has stood against the passing of time and increasing human intelligence. So read the Bible, and poke all the fun you can at it. Put it down, and then tell me there weren't a few things that were intriquing from a manuscript so old. Trouble is many people ,who have never even read the bible, are willing to go along with the insults hurled at it. Too bad really. Even without the religious side of the Bible, human history has proven to be factually accounted for in the Bible. As a matter of fact if you are keeping tab science has probably proven more truths in the Bible then it has disproved. Archeologist have actually used bible verse to lead to actual discoveries to put a real touch of reality on it.

God's rules actually provide the basis for a safe fulfilling life. Following Gods rules will reduce your stress and spare you great physical and emotional pain. If that is boring too you then sorry.

People are a quick to blame Christianity for the crusades and the inquisition, but in reality these were acts of demented people using Christinanity as a Trogen horse to inflict pain and suffering on others. It is not what Jesus professed. Liberal western culture has its roots firmly entrenched in Christian beliefs. Our laws and social fabric are based on Christian values. Race equality, equal status for women, social program for the poor. People call this "human conscience", but if it was a true inherent human conscience then why do we not see these values exibited world wide.???? Humanists have now adopted this philosophy, but lets not forget where it originated. Kindness and forgiving is cultural not inherent. Look around the world my friends. Look at the human condition in the countries of the world. Draw some conclusion to the facts as they are presented, and see how Christianity weaves into the outcome.

Half of you are living Christian lifestyles and are only missing the faith part of it. You have accepted the physical rewards of Christian living, but are missing out on the spiritual rewards. Read the gospel of Jesus for yourself and see if it doesn't put a different slant on things for you. You might surprise yourself.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Cobblers!

This is the fundamental mistake that many Christians make in treating the Bible as being a historically accurate document.

You are missing the point - go back in time and you will find that most, if not all of the passages in both the new and old testament were written as parables by Jewish/Christian gnostics with hidden meanings. Yes some of the people may have existed, but just like modern Hollywood films, there should be a warning to say - this is a fictionalised account based upon (some) real people.

It is the meaning of the text that is valuable and on that you and I hopefully would agree.

But to say that this is an accurate history of our planet is ridiculous, especially given the number of times it has been translated, reinterpreted and rewritten (not forgetting the fact that much of it was handed down verbally for decades). Word of God? I don't think so.

Once you get over slavishly following the Bible as an accurate historical account, you can then start to appreciate the hidden meanings.

[YHR 0]

Cobblers!

This is the fundamental mistake that many Christians make in treating the Bible as being a historically accurate document.

You are missing the point - go back in time and you will find that most, if not all of the passages in both the new and old testament were written as parables by Jewish/Christian gnostics with hidden meanings. Yes some of the people may have existed, but just like modern Hollywood films, there should be a warning to say - this is a fictionalised account based upon (some) real people.

It is the meaning of the text that is valuable and on that you and I hopefully would agree.

But to say that this is an accurate history of our planet is ridiculous, especially given the number of times it has been translated, reinterpreted and rewritten (not forgetting the fact that much of it was handed down verbally for decades). Word of God? I don't think so.

Once you get over slavishly following the Bible as an accurate historical account, you can then start to appreciate the hidden meanings.

Where did I say the Bible was accurate historical account of our planet????? I said passages in the bible concerning human history have been proven to be correct.

I did say don't be surprised to find how much it has got right as human science catches up to it. For an old manuscript written before the human race even knew the world was was round, I find some of the info pretty amazing. Also I was reading a National geographic or some such magazine and it mentioned how the archeologist was able to find the the location he was looking for by reading a passage in the bible.

I absolutely agree it is the words and the wisdom that are the treasure. Trust me I am not missing the point!!!!

Anyway a rather backhanded attack. "slavishly following the bible as an accurate historical account" for a statement I never made. How does that work??? Imply someone said something and then ridicule them on it.????????? You must be an F1 Journalist.

[Schumikonen 2]

Yeah. Well you're helping people, which must be rewarding in itself. I can't imagine you shouting at airport staff though!

Your problem, Jez, is that you're far too generous! I think Schumikonen's arguments are very poor here.

You have to look within yourself and decide for yourself. God gave you your conscience, so as long as you use it honestly and to the best of your ability, He can hardly judge you for using it.

How do you "know" the Bible is true in every regard? (Of course, you have already admitted that the version of the Bible available today isn't true in every regard!)

What would happen if God (in a vision) or the Bible told you to do something that you conscience told you not to do? Let's say hypothetically that the Bible or God told you to kill every black person. Would you do it? (For those that don't know, in the past God has told His followers to practice genocide.)

I bet you got that argument from a book or some preacher, but it's totally wrong. They are just misleading you. You don't need a rule to tell you to drive safely; you just need to do the right thing. You already know that driving too fast is dangerous, so don't do it. The fact that you would like to do another thing is irrelevant because you know it would be wrong.

Nope. I think that if God exists He will reward people who did the right thing according to their God-given conscience. Doing things that you think are wrong, just because it says to in a book, is no morality at all. Doing those wrong things just so you get your "reward" from God is even worse. Honestly, I think there are few things less moral than that.

You may be right in this matter, the same bible says the following in Romans 2

13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

But the bible also says this in Probervs 14:

12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

The problem here is that we are not taking another point into consideration here (I tried to avoid it here but this time I will bring it on) That point is that we are not alone here, I mean if God is real (Like I am sure he is) then the other side of the spiritual world is real too, that other side is constanstly pushing man to get into revelion against God, that side have powerful tools to make man think the way they want and man usually do what they aant man to do while man is thinking they are acting on their own free will, you can see them so the last thing you think is that they are affecting you like that, so you don't do anything to stop their influence in you because "they just don't exist" this is worse that fighting terrosim, the so called enemy with no face, I know that for most of you this is like a tale but is not, the man by himself can behave like you say but with that influence the man just can not take the right desicions all the time, at that point is when we need God to act in our favor because us being flesh just can deal with spiritual entities without God's power, we can just not defeat that enemy by ourselves.

About driving fast you may be right again but I know I do a very good and safe driving at a faster speed that the one posted, I can judge when the speed is to fast to be safe so even when I have the rule that tells me to go 65 i know I can drive safetly at 90 miles and that's what I want to do but just because of the rule I don't go over 70 I don't drive at that speed because of my own judgement or maybe my own jugdement tells the is a rule I must obey to stay out of trouble.

[Quiet One 15]

Forget the religious side of the bible. Read it as a book of fiction if you like, but read it.

The Old testament Jobe 40: 15-19 (2000 years BC) talks of Behemoth's that walked the earth with a tail the size of cedars. So even if we say the Bible was thrown together by a bunch of folks who were drinking to much wine 800 years ago, they still wrote of something that we had no physical evidence of until hundreds of years later. The world being round, and the infinite expansion of space is documented in the bible thousands of years before science proved it to be true. Higher education and Universities all have roots to the Christian Church.

So...we meet again, YHR *evil laugh*

Nah, just kidding. But as you might know, I love all things about story, and Bible plays a major role in middle east history. So, as usual, I will give you yet another point of view about the Bible, which, again, might not be better than yours, but is certainly as valid and makes as much sense.

Correct me if I am mistaken, but you seem to imply that Job was hinting about dinosaurs there. Of all the books in the OT, Job is certainly one of the most fascinating. It has a higher poetical content than many of the remaining OT (or NT, for that matter) books. Lots of obscure metaphors, mostly related with ancient astronomy (which makes many scholars think it is of a non-Hebrew origin, as they never really were much of an astromomist people). Of course, the central story still fascinates many until now.

I agree with you, people should read Job, it is a beatufil literary work, for both believers and non believers. Now, back to the point, I will copy the verses you name, plus a few more referring to the Behemoth. I found the New American Bible version, I hope it is an acceptable one:

1 See, besides you I made Behemoth, that feeds on grass like an ox.

16

Behold the strength in his loins, and his vigor in the sinews of his belly.

17

He carries his tail like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are like cables.

18

His bones are like tubes of bronze; his frame is like iron rods.

19

He came at the beginning of God's ways, and was made the taskmaster of his fellows;

20

For the produce of the mountains is brought to him, and of all wild animals he makes sport.

21

Under the lotus trees he lies, in coverts of the reedy swamp.

22

The lotus trees cover him with their shade; all about him are the poplars on the bank.

23

If the river grows violent, he is not disturbed; he is tranquil though the torrent surges about his mouth.

So, basically, he talks about a huge animal that feeds on grass, and lies in the "reedy swamps", thankfuly, it does not sound too fierce, as he is tranquil even if the river grows violent.

Mmmh..somehow it doesn't makes me think of Jurassic Park...it makes me think of something like this beast. It was a beast well known for the Hebrews, as it populated the swampy areas around the Nile, and it might certainly have impressed them, as it still impresses us today.

[Schumikonen 2]

Being kind, loving and generous to as many people as you can gives you a great reward. I don't need God in my life to be able to see that. It's common sense. As for the 'rules', i don't need something in my life that tells me i might be punished by going downstairs to the hot place if i live my life wrong. That's just fantasy fear. I'll be treated badly by others if i do that. That's the lesson you learn. That's something that is real. If i am bad to someone, their adverse reaction tells me that it is not the thing to do.

I have to say this, is God for people who really cannot grasp the fundamental principles of a sound set of morals? Why do you need God if you are happy with the way you are living your life and know that you are having a positive effect on the people around you? Why do you need God if when you get it wrong, you learn and know why it was wrong?

What is the 'need'? I'm fascinated.

the need is as simple as this:

If God is real then eveything he says is real real too, if everything he says is real too then I have to believe in that everything, if he created everything and he is going take care of everything then I want to be on his side.

I know he is real, I know everything he say is real, I know that everything is going to happen the way he planned and I want to be part of that plan too, so that is my need, I know there may be other needs for different people but in my case I want ot be on God's side, I trust him and if I do why am I going to try to be away from him, probably I don't need a God for many things in my life, but the God I believe in says there is no middle point, we are eather with him or against him, and this is not if you believe or not, accept it or not, if you not with him them you are against him, I know my God and I want (you can call it need) to be on his side.

And about morals I can tell you they are different for different groups of people, or example having more that one wife is unaceptable in this country (USA) but is not the case in other places, there are cultures where a girl becomes a woman at 12 year old here in USA you can go to jail for having sex with a 17 year old, that is not the case in my country Dom. Rep.

So when we talk about moral what are we really talking about?

[Schumikonen 2]

So...we meet again, YHR *evil laugh*

Nah, just kidding. But as you might know, I love all things about story, and Bible plays a major role in middle east history. So, as usual, I will give you yet another point of view about the Bible, which, again, might not be better than yours, but is certainly as valid and makes as much sense.

Correct me if I am mistaken, but you seem to imply that Job was hinting about dinosaurs there. Of all the books in the OT, Job is certainly one of the most fascinating. It has a higher poetical content than many of the remaining OT (or NT, for that matter) books. Lots of obscure metaphors, mostly related with ancient astronomy (which makes many scholars think it is of a non-Hebrew origin, as they never really were much of an astromomist people). Of course, the central story still fascinates many until now.

I agree with you, people should read Job, it is a beatufil literary work, for both believers and non believers. Now, back to the point, I will copy the verses you name, plus a few more referring to the Behemoth. I found the New American Bible version, I hope it is an acceptable one:

So, basically, he talks about a huge animal that feeds on grass, and lies in the "reedy swamps", thankfuly, it does not sound too fierce, as he is tranquil even if the river grows violent.

Mmmh..somehow it doesn't makes me think of Jurassic Park...it makes me think of something like this beast. It was a beast well known for the Hebrews, as it populated the swampy areas around the Nile, and it might certainly have impressed them, as it still impresses us today.

I don't know why I thought about that animal while reading your explanation.

[Schumikonen 2]

Agree 100% Dribs.

The most common need in my experience is a fear of death (although rarely admitted to) and this is seen as a safe way out.

Fear is a human obsession and much played on by governments and religions (esp. where they both meet up). BTW Saw an older but excellent article from an expert highlighting the hype from government and media on the failed attempt to "bomb" Glasgow airport... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/02/te...diocy_outbreak/ Shows just how full of fear we all are these days...

Anyway, I digress, back to religion. Personally I don't wish to spend my life in fear and would rather occupy my mind with more positive and helpful thoughts.

Looks like you don't know that several religions teach that for thoses who are not on God side they are just going to die and that will be their final step, they teach thoses people are not going to hell they will just missed the chance of having eternal life with Jesus, 7th day Adventist and Jehovah Witness are two of thoses each of thoses religions have millions of followers and they are not there by fear of hell or anything like that, I think we have to change the idea that people are following God because of fear because that doesn't work if we follow Gdo by fear we are nto saved anyway becuase we are saved by faith not by fear.

[cavallino 2]

Where did I say the Bible was accurate historical account of our planet????? I said passages in the bible concerning human history have been proven to be correct.

I did say don't be surprised to find how much it has got right as human science catches up to it. For an old manuscript written before the human race even knew the world was was round, I find some of the info pretty amazing. Also I was reading a National geographic or some such magazine and it mentioned how the archeologist was able to find the the location he was looking for by reading a passage in the bible.

That's not saying much though is it? It got most things wrong. If you just take the things it did get right, it still pales in comparison to contemporary and earlier scientific works of that period. And remember, the bible is a collection of works. If you take the collection of works published before and around the time the bible was (supposedly) composed, well there isn't much comparison, is there?

I'll give a few examples..

Euclid's Elements - a monumental work on geometry and number theory, look up wikipedia for a list of things, basically everything you learn in maths before high school

Archimedes - the Archimedes principle, the archimedes screw, estimation of pi, square roots,

Vitruvius - De_Architectura - All about town planning, aqueducts etc

This is just an example, there are many more. And these are just works whose knowledge has survived. By biblical times, immense discoveries in science and in technology has been made. And then we have ancient Indian works which I havne't even mentioned.

And this is why I feel there's a hypocrisy here, when you point to the bible as a source of real knowledge, yet everything around you, everything you use everyday is built on the foundations created by the people mentioned above, not the bible.

What if the world was to end in say around 300 AD, and you had to store knowledge for the future generations. What would give us the best chance of ending up with a world as advanced as the one we have today? Storing just the bible, or the works I mentioned above?

Or maybe,

When the great American physicist and bongo-drums player, Richard Feynman, was asked to think of a single sentence that would convey the most important scientific knowledge we possess, he answered simply: "Everything is made of atoms."

Is that in the bible?

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Where did I say the Bible was accurate historical account of our planet?????

Er, here:

....human history has proven to be factually accounted for in the Bible.

I did say don't be surprised to find how much it has got right as human science catches up to it. For an old manuscript written before the human race even knew the world was was round, I find some of the info pretty amazing.

As science catches up with it?

Ancient Greeks knew the world revolved around the Sun, identified many of the planets, had already developed a simple theory of evolution, had developed trigonometry, discovered electricity and magnets, understood elements of biology, worked out the circumference of the earth to within 15%, invented a steam turbine and water pump not forgetting their philosophy, poetry and other mathematical discoveries. And this was 200 - 300 years before Jesus supposedly lived and 300 - 500 years before the Bible was completed.

Also I was reading a National geographic or some such magazine and it mentioned how the archeologist was able to find the the location he was looking for by reading a passage in the bible.

So he was looking for Jerusalem? That's amazing.

I absolutely agree it is the words and the wisdom that are the treasure. Trust me I am not missing the point!!!!

Good

Anyway a rather backhanded attack. "slavishly following the bible as an accurate historical account" for a statement I never made. How does that work??? Imply someone said something and then ridicule them on it.????????? You must be an F1 Journalist.

Whatever...

[Max Mosley 2]

You may be right in this matter, the same bible says the following in Romans 2

13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

But the bible also says this in Probervs 14:

12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

The problem here is that we are not taking another point into consideration here (I tried to avoid it here but this time I will bring it on) That point is that we are not alone here, I mean if God is real (Like I am sure he is) then the other side of the spiritual world is real too, that other side is constanstly pushing man to get into revelion against God, that side have powerful tools to make man think the way they want and man usually do what they aant man to do while man is thinking they are acting on their own free will, you can see them so the last thing you think is that they are affecting you like that, so you don't do anything to stop their influence in you because "they just don't exist" this is worse that fighting terrosim, the so called enemy with no face, I know that for most of you this is like a tale but is not, the man by himself can behave like you say but with that influence the man just can not take the right desicions all the time, at that point is when we need God to act in our favor because us being flesh just can deal with spiritual entities without God's power, we can just not defeat that enemy by ourselves.

Are you saying these evil spirits tempt us to do wrong things? If that's the case then I don't think it is a problem: we always have temptations to do wrong things, but that doesn't stop us knowing what the right thing to do is. But perhaps you are saying something different.

Are you saying that these evil spirits can literally prevent me from knowing wrong from right, even if I do my very best to figure it out? So, for example, an evil spirit could make me genuinely think it is morally virtuous to commit genocide? This is different to just making me tempted to commit horrible crimes. Could an evil spirit make me think that 2+2=5?

If you're saying the second thing then I think we all have a huge problem. In that case, how do you know God exists? Perhaps it was just an evil spirit pretending to be God? If they can make us think 2+2=5 then they could surely pretend to be a God and appear to us in visions and perform the odd miracle to trick us.

Furthermore in this case, how do you know the Bible is the ultimate truth? Perhaps it was written or changed by evil spirits? Suppose God gave us our own consciences to guard against any changes being made to His book? Why is the Bible less likely to be changed by evil spirits than our own God-given sense of right and wrong?

About driving fast you may be right again but I know I do a very good and safe driving at a faster speed that the one posted, I can judge when the speed is to fast to be safe so even when I have the rule that tells me to go 65 i know I can drive safetly at 90 miles and that's what I want to do but just because of the rule I don't go over 70 I don't drive at that speed because of my own judgement or maybe my own jugdement tells the is a rule I must obey to stay out of trouble.

There is a logical problem with your argument here Schumikonen. Let's take the situation where you say: " I have the rule that tells me to go 65 [but] i know I can drive safely at 90". Well, can't you see the problem here? If you know you can drive safely at 90mph, then what good is the rule? If you really can drive safely at that speed then the rule is pointless and not protecting anyone. If on the other hand you are tempted to drive at 90mph when you know that it would be a little bit dangerous, then deep down you know the right speed to drive at already.

Also, I'm not arguing against rules. I support having a speed limit. But the laws and rules we follow must make sense to us, and must not contradict our own God-given sense of right and wrong.

If God told you to (in a vision), would you kill someone?