45 replies to this topic

[pumpdoc]

After losing a spring without crashing and after Massa ran into with his head such spring, I believe the Brawns should be parked untill an investigation is done to determine why a masjor part "fell" off of Rubens car.

[Schumikonen]

pumpdoc, on 25 July 2009 - 11:21 PM, said:

After losing a spring without crashing and after Massa ran into with his head such spring, I believe the Brawns should be parked untill an investigation is done to determine why a masjor part "fell" off of Rubens car.

Right now they are a top team but I agree with you, but they should not only understand the cause but fix it before getting back to the race track again.

[aussief1]

Yes I have to agree with Bruce - The FIA & race stewards need to be shown why this happened, why it won't happen again, what steps have been put in place to rectify the issue, and finally why they should be allowed to race. If all this cannot be do prior to the start then no way should they be allowed to take the grid.

[HandyNZL]

I'm pretty sure the stewards will be on to it.  Wasn't that long ago and Kimi was tossing his exhaust pipes on the track.  Things happen.  A bolt shears or some such.  The Brawn cars will be ok and they will be re-scrutinised.

[pumpdoc]

HandyNZL, on 26 July 2009 - 12:48 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure the stewards will be on to it.  Wasn't that long ago and Kimi was tossing his exhaust pipes on the track.  Things happen.  A bolt shears or some such.  The Brawn cars will be ok and they will be re-scrutinised.

Kimi should've been parked.
Massa is lucky to be alive, the Brawns have a serious issue, the spring that came out wasn't broken from what I've gleened so why did it exit?
The cars were already scrutineered and it still happened.

[Argento Reloaded]

BrawnGP must explain why Button�s car is always right and Rubinho seems to be assembled with spare parts! The dream is over, BrawnGP can�t reach the pace of development/investment a full F1 season needs.
And yes the cars should be parked.

[AleHop]

Yes, they should stop investigating racing incidents everywhere and focus on things like that. I hope they deeply investigate the issue and find a reason for that spring to leave Barrichello's car. The accident is a bad coincidence after another one and so on... But that kind of things must be investigated and cleared.

[Insider]

Ross Brawn is a highly responsible member of the F1 fraternity and if he feels there is the slightest chance that either car is technically unfit to race he will park them.  The rear damper broke on Ruben's car - it did not just fall off.  Barrichello reported a problem with it earlier in the session. A manufacturing error is the most likely cause of most cases like this and I am positive the stewards will be focusing their investigations in that area.  Jenson's car was thoroughly checked out by the team and the corresponding part replaced.  However, if the part has an inherent weakness then BGP will have to withdraw unless new parts were made overnight. It is tragic that Massa should have been on the receiving end of this particular issue and I am positive that BGP and the stewards will have been working together to have both cars declared safe to race.  

The fact that the team have had two bad races is irrelevant.  Why anyone should bring that up in this context is beyond me. The fact is, most members of this forum saw them running around with the Force India's this year.  What they have achieved to date is pretty awesome by any standard.  They are a highly professional outfit and certainly won't go racing today unless they are completely happy with both cars.

Edit: Typo

Edited by Insider, 26 July 2009 - 06:23 AM.

[Jean Todt]

Insider, on 26 July 2009 - 06:12 AM, said:

Ross Brawn is a highly responsible member of the F1 fraternity and if he feels there is the slightest chance that either car is technically unfit to race he will park them.  The rear damper broke on Ruben's car - it did not just fall off.  Barrichello reported a problem with it earlier in the session. A manufacturing error is the most likely cause of most cases like this and I am positive the stewards will be focusing their investigations in that area.  Jenson's car was thoroughly checked out by the team and the corresponding part replaced.  However, if the part has an inherent weakness then BGP will have to withdraw unless new parts were made overnight. It is tragic that Massa should have been on the receiving end of this particular issue and I am positive that BGP and the stewards will have been working together to have both cars declared safe to race.  

The fact that the team have had two bad races is irrelevant.  Why anyone should bring that up in this context is beyond me. The fact is, most members of this forum saw them running around with the Force India's this year.  What they have achieved to date is pretty awesome by any standard.  They are a highly professional outfit and certainly won't go racing today unless they are completely happy with both cars.

Edit: Typo

I kinda agree wit Sid,

Anything can happen, remember Hekki's accident because of a stone traped in the rim and caused griding, which weakened the wheel causing the problem? There are just many things beyound anyone's control, doesnt mean I say FIA should relax, I am sure steps will be taken, but another accident is only likely to occour either to drivers or crew members etc. BGP delayed sending Jenson out for Q3 mainly because they were ensuring that things are pretty safe in rear of his car.

[medilloni]

I suppose it's understandable that there's concern about Philipe, but this thread is a knee jerk.  

This investigation is partly driven by the need to be seen to do something so the public image of the sport is kept nice and safe.  To infer that Brawn wouldn't take it seriously and that he might put performance before safety is a moronic, and I'd suggest that it might be a good idea to look at the frailty of Neweys designs in the past before pointing fingers and suggesting they should be parked - Adrian Newey is a genius, but many of his cars are ackowledged to have been borderline safe, and throw in the lack of testing... is anyone in any doubt that this type of event is now more likely than it was with testing?  There's no amount of testing back at the factory that can highlight what might happen on the track.

Whem Kimi had a piece of his exhaust flying off people said he should stop, and he didn't, but was there an investigation into why it happened? No, and the only reason is because it didn't hit someone.

Next time you see a driver with a loose front wing (we see this countless times) are you going to jump out of your seat shouting for him to stop before he kills someone?  Are you feck.  Will the loose wing have to be investigated?  Get real.

Of the countless times we've seen a flash of fire at refueling, nothing was said about banning it, but the line has been so fine before a major terrifying incident could happen that it was a damn good reason to make a judgement call based on frequency of occurence and degree of risk, yet this didn't happen.  If a driver and/or pit crew had been seriously injured in public view what do you think would have happened?  Don't you think it would have been banned?

Testing should be allowed to such an extent that major parts can be tested, and testing should be allowed for new guys to get mileage - if Jamie had hit a wall or another driver yesterday, would we be up in arms about his lack of experience? No, but if he had injured or killed someone, then you would.

The sad affair surrounding Henry, and the timing of Massa's terrible incident couldn't be worse, but again, this has helped to fuel the fire of panic.  The chances of both accidents are so small that it's one of the hundreds of tiny incidents that could happen again - but the sport would be ruined trying to cater for avery single possibility and eventuality.

So now we want to ban the risk of a part flying off a car. Won't happen.  And as for those of you that would react differnetly if it was a Renault, BMW, Red Bull etc, then you should follow boy bands and get out of this sport.

Edited by medilloni, 26 July 2009 - 09:57 AM.

[dribbler]

medilloni, on 26 July 2009 - 09:56 AM, said:

I suppose it's understandable that there's concern about Philipe, but this thread is a knee jerk.  

This investigation is partly driven by the need to be seen to do something so the public image of the sport is kept nice and safe.  To infer that Brawn wouldn't take it seriously and that he might put performance before safety is a moronic, and I'd suggest that it might be a good idea to look at the frailty of Neweys designs in the past before pointing fingers and suggesting they should be parked - Adrian Newey is a genius, but many of his cars are ackowledged to have been borderline safe, and throw in the lack of testing... is anyone in any doubt that this type of event is now more likely than it was with testing?  There's no amount of testing back at the factory that can highlight what might happen on the track.

Whem Kimi had a piece of his exhaust flying off people said he should stop, and he didn't, but was there an investigation into why it happened? No, and the only reason is because it didn't hit someone.

Next time you see a driver with a loose front wing (we see this countless times) are you going to jump out of your seat shouting for him to stop before he kills someone?  Are you feck.  Will the loose wing have to be investigated?  Get real.

Of the countless times we've seen a flash of fire at refueling, nothing was said about banning it, but the line has been so fine before a major terrifying incident could happen that it was a damn good reason to make a judgement call based on frequency of occurence and degree of risk, yet this didn't happen.  If a driver and/or pit crew had been seriously injured in public view what do you think would have happened?  Don't you think it would have been banned?

Testing should be allowed to such an extent that major parts can be tested, and testing should be allowed for new guys to get mileage - if Jamie had hit a wall or another driver yesterday, would we be up in arms about his lack of experience? No, but if he had injured or killed someone, then you would.

The sad affair surrounding Henry, and the timing of Massa's terrible incident couldn't be worse, but again, this has helped to fuel the fire of panic.  The chances of both accidents are so small that it's one of the hundreds of tiny incidents that could happen again - but the sport would be ruined trying to cater for avery single possibility and eventuality.

So now we want to ban the risk of a part flying off a car. Won't happen.  And as for those of you that would react differnetly if it was a Renault, BMW, Red Bull etc, then you should follow boy bands and get out of this sport.

Lovely.

[Quiet One]

medilloni, on 26 July 2009 - 09:56 AM, said:

I suppose it's understandable that there's concern about Philipe, but this thread is a knee jerk.  

This investigation is partly driven by the need to be seen to do something so the public image of the sport is kept nice and safe.  To infer that Brawn wouldn't take it seriously and that he might put performance before safety is a moronic, and I'd suggest that it might be a good idea to look at the frailty of Neweys designs in the past before pointing fingers and suggesting they should be parked - Adrian Newey is a genius, but many of his cars are ackowledged to have been borderline safe, and throw in the lack of testing... is anyone in any doubt that this type of event is now more likely than it was with testing?  There's no amount of testing back at the factory that can highlight what might happen on the track.

Whem Kimi had a piece of his exhaust flying off people said he should stop, and he didn't, but was there an investigation into why it happened? No, and the only reason is because it didn't hit someone.

Next time you see a driver with a loose front wing (we see this countless times) are you going to jump out of your seat shouting for him to stop before he kills someone?  Are you feck.  Will the loose wing have to be investigated?  Get real.

Of the countless times we've seen a flash of fire at refueling, nothing was said about banning it, but the line has been so fine before a major terrifying incident could happen that it was a damn good reason to make a judgement call based on frequency of occurence and degree of risk, yet this didn't happen.  If a driver and/or pit crew had been seriously injured in public view what do you think would have happened?  Don't you think it would have been banned?

Testing should be allowed to such an extent that major parts can be tested, and testing should be allowed for new guys to get mileage - if Jamie had hit a wall or another driver yesterday, would we be up in arms about his lack of experience? No, but if he had injured or killed someone, then you would.

The sad affair surrounding Henry, and the timing of Massa's terrible incident couldn't be worse, but again, this has helped to fuel the fire of panic.  The chances of both accidents are so small that it's one of the hundreds of tiny incidents that could happen again - but the sport would be ruined trying to cater for avery single possibility and eventuality.

So now we want to ban the risk of a part flying off a car. Won't happen.  And as for those of you that would react differnetly if it was a Renault, BMW, Red Bull etc, then you should follow boy bands and get out of this sport.

So true it almost hurts my eyes. Oh no, that's your pic

[monza gorilla]

^what he said. Excellent post Sir Meds.

[AleHop]

medilloni, on 26 July 2009 - 09:56 AM, said:

I suppose...

Are you saying that a 0.7 kg / 1.5 lbs spring flying off a car without a previous incident is something nobody should care about? Lovely!
Are you saying that even if that part of Brawn's car is weak and a spring could fly off the car again they should be allowed to race anyway? Lovely!

It shouldn't matter whether it hits someone or not but unfortunately nobody would have noticed anything if the spring hadn't hit Massa and FIA wouldn't give a Sh#t in that case. Is it our fault? This is something they should investigate and maybe they should think twice about cost cutting. We have said many times FIA are constantly investigating stupid things, handing out penalties... We'll see 3 or 4 new 'cost cutting' teams next year and all the time money is above safety for FIA.

I agree on most of your post but don't blame us.

Edited by AleHop, 26 July 2009 - 11:04 AM.

[Halfie]

Top Quality post mate!

Totally agree with what you said, and the problem with these knee jerk reactions is that people always want to scrutinise everything closer especially with the tragic events of last week.  A prime example of people going the complete other way in response to anything was during Eduardo's horror leg break in the Premier League - lots of tackles would go unpunished, but for a month afterwards you saw a load of red cards for tackles that would not have been red.

Formula 1 is a dangerous sport, as is any motor-racing but we have seen two freakish accidents in a week.  I think people should be more thankful that safety has come such a long way that most of the terrible crashes we see mean the drivers walk away.  You cant make something 100% safe, but the steps which have been taken to get to where we are undoubtedly saved Massa's life.  We should be praising these achievements rather than openly condemning Brawn.

I am sure the part could have fallen off anyones car, from any team, its a freak accident.  Brawn took the right decision with compromising Jenson's qualifying by throughly checking out the car before letting him go out.  That is the outfit they run - professional and safety focussed.

[pumpdoc]

Wow, stirred up the hornets nest did I? All I was saying is that they should be parked till an answer is found, just like a while back when certain rear wings just seemed to colapse.

[AleHop]

A flying wheel during the race...

Who cares!

[Dude]

So let's see if we stop the race every ten laps to inspect the track for debris in the name of safety that should do it!!! Oh wait they already do that in NASCAR!!!!LOL!!!!! We also need snipers to shoot the local vermin before they get to the track!!!! And take out all the gravel traps and replace them with large, deep holes so no one can re-enter with rads full of stones!!!!!! Better yet lets just use remote controlled cars and no one gets hurt ever!!!! That's it!!!!

[Argento Reloaded]

For those praising Brawn Professionalism and integrity go out and tell it to Felipe...
My thoughs -I have no data to confirm- : the piece broke not by a quality problem but for stress and Jenson�s car overteer during the race seems to confirm that. In this case is a DESIGN problem. BranGP�s reponsability. Period. The rest about if Ross helps some old ladies to  cross the road is irrelevant, because his past at Ferrari doesn�t seems to confirm his fair play commitment.
Ferrari should been investigated after kimi�s incident as we new an statement from the FIA and Reno regarding Nando�s car flying wheel: the whell security system doesn�t works! The had 4 weeks to give us an answer.

[medilloni]

AleHop, on 26 July 2009 - 10:57 AM, said:

Are you saying that a 0.7 kg / 1.5 lbs spring flying off a car without a previous incident is something nobody should care about? Lovely!
Are you saying that even if that part of Brawn's car is weak and a spring could fly off the car again they should be allowed to race anyway? Lovely!

No, that's not what I'm saying, I'm talking about extremely rare events that, being the sport it is, will always have a chance of happening - and then some people's reaction being completely out of context with dealing with a sport that will always have extreme levels of danger.

Quote

It shouldn't matter whether it hits someone or not but unfortunately nobody would have noticed anything if the spring hadn't hit Massa and FIA wouldn't give a Sh#t in that case. Is it our fault?

No, it isn't out fault, but I think you get part of my point - that people only shout and scream when life is plainly endangered.

Quote

This is something they should investigate and maybe they should think twice about cost cutting. We have said many times FIA are constantly investigating stupid things, handing out penalties... We'll see 3 or 4 new 'cost cutting' teams next year and all the time money is above safety for FIA.

Exactly.

Quote

I agree on most of your post but don't blame us.

Alehop, I'm not blaming anyone here (maybe a hint of '**** off' to fanboys I admit), but I suppose I am questioning people's reaction to an extremely rare event, an unforeseen event, and realistically an event that will always be with the drivers no matter what they do with the cars.  Cars will always fail, sometimes putting others at risk, sometimes not.  I don't believe Henry's and Philipe's accident are anything more than a horrible combination of things that will always be possible within motorsport.

Now, why don't we talk about Fernando being banned for a race due to knowingly driving a dangerous car with a wheel that could have killed people? (No, I'm not being serious...)

[Jean Todt]

medilloni, on 26 July 2009 - 09:56 AM, said:

I suppose it's understandable that there's concern about Philipe, but this thread is a knee jerk.  

This investigation is partly driven by the need to be seen to do something so the public image of the sport is kept nice and safe.  To infer that Brawn wouldn't take it seriously and that he might put performance before safety is a moronic, and I'd suggest that it might be a good idea to look at the frailty of Neweys designs in the past before pointing fingers and suggesting they should be parked - Adrian Newey is a genius, but many of his cars are ackowledged to have been borderline safe, and throw in the lack of testing... is anyone in any doubt that this type of event is now more likely than it was with testing?  There's no amount of testing back at the factory that can highlight what might happen on the track.

Whem Kimi had a piece of his exhaust flying off people said he should stop, and he didn't, but was there an investigation into why it happened? No, and the only reason is because it didn't hit someone.

Next time you see a driver with a loose front wing (we see this countless times) are you going to jump out of your seat shouting for him to stop before he kills someone?  Are you feck.  Will the loose wing have to be investigated?  Get real.

Of the countless times we've seen a flash of fire at refueling, nothing was said about banning it, but the line has been so fine before a major terrifying incident could happen that it was a damn good reason to make a judgement call based on frequency of occurence and degree of risk, yet this didn't happen.  If a driver and/or pit crew had been seriously injured in public view what do you think would have happened?  Don't you think it would have been banned?

Testing should be allowed to such an extent that major parts can be tested, and testing should be allowed for new guys to get mileage - if Jamie had hit a wall or another driver yesterday, would we be up in arms about his lack of experience? No, but if he had injured or killed someone, then you would.

The sad affair surrounding Henry, and the timing of Massa's terrible incident couldn't be worse, but again, this has helped to fuel the fire of panic.  The chances of both accidents are so small that it's one of the hundreds of tiny incidents that could happen again - but the sport would be ruined trying to cater for avery single possibility and eventuality.

So now we want to ban the risk of a part flying off a car. Won't happen.  And as for those of you that would react differnetly if it was a Renault, BMW, Red Bull etc, then you should follow boy bands and get out of this sport.

Great post!

[sliderule]

Hello to all,

If I may ask...

Let's say for safety sake and not that I am up for this to happen.

But let's just say that F1 teams where allowed to run their GP machines with no driver (remotely controlled) at a track with no spectators (in case of debris flying off to the grandstands).

If they were allowed to open up the rule book and allow pretty much everything, any type of technology.

What lap times would we be seeing at these tracks presently?

[Jean Todt]

Jaime Alguersuari was delighted to have made it to the chequered flag on his grand prix debut in Hungary, but admitted the physical toll left him �destroyed� in the closing stages.

Alguersuari completed an impressively assured maiden GP weekend by finishing the race in 15th place, one spot ahead of Toro Rosso team-mate Sebastien Buemi.

The 19-year-old was well satisfied with his performance but confessed that he had found 69 laps of the Hungaroring a gruelling experience.

�I am very happy to have finished, but the last five laps were very difficult from the physical point of view,� he said.

�I found it hard to keep the car on the pace, but I am very satisfied.

�Five laps from the end I was completely destroyed.




�I had a lot of pain in the lower back and upper back, but I just settled down in my head and in the end I could manage to make my fastest lap time at the end.�

Alguersuari, who carved himself a slice of F1 history by becoming the sport�s youngest ever competitor, said he had treated the race as a learning experience and achieved his goal of an error-free performance.

�P15 is not so bad, but the main objective was to complete the 70 laps, with no mistakes, maintaining my pace,� he said.

�I have learned a lot but I have to say there are some aspects of F1 which made me think, �Sh#t this is tough�.�

Team boss Franz Tost praised his new young charge, saying the Spaniard had done everything expected of him.

�Well done to Jaime on finishing his first race, which means he�s learned a lot this weekend,� said Tost.

�That was our main target with him.

�He will need another two races, after which I expect to see him make it through to Q2 [the second qualifying session].�

In the other side of the garage, Buemi was scathing about his performance after finishing 16th and last.

�I am very disappointed with this race, as I made a lot of mistakes and I am not at all happy with my performance,� said the Swiss rookie.

�I don�t think starting on the harder tyres was the right decision. I lost several places at the start and got stuck in traffic.

�Just a bad race.

�The car was good, as we showed in qualifying but today I was the one who made the mistakes.

�The only positive thing is that the car is definitely improved with this new package.�


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As Medilloni pointed out, we really need more testing.

[mikathegreat2]

sliderule, on 26 July 2009 - 03:49 PM, said:

Hello to all,

If I may ask...

Let's say for safety sake and not that I am up for this to happen.

But let's just say that F1 teams where allowed to run their GP machines with no driver (remotely controlled) at a track with no spectators (in case of debris flying off to the grandstands).

If they were allowed to open up the rule book and allow pretty much everything, any type of technology.

What lap times would we be seeing at these tracks presently?

Lewis tested an RC car @ Bahrain during pre-season testing!

[AleHop]

medilloni, on 26 July 2009 - 02:27 PM, said:

Now, why don't we talk about Fernando being banned for a race due to knowingly driving a dangerous car with a wheel that could have killed people? (Yes, I'm being serious!)

Now we can start talking.

They are idiots. They should miss the remaining of the season. Period.

FIA have investigated radio transmissions and the team knew or should have known the wheel wasn't properly attached to the car. Alonso told them he had a puncture and they should have realised what the problem was and how dangerous the situation was.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/77354

The problem is not the mechanics' mistake or Alonso's car losing a wheel, the problem is the team not taking any action to avoid that after it has been proved they were aware of the situation. But if FIA changed the penalty it would be because people haven't bought many tickets for the European bore fest GP and they'll try to change the situation now that Renault&Alonso look good enough to put up a fight.

The penalty is harsh but a child, a driver, a steward or a mechanic killed because of their inaction... Sorry, that's how I see it. They did know that could happen, they are under pressure and all that but a flying wheel, spring or whatever should be avoided if possible.

[Jean Todt]

Personally, I am really really happy to hear Renault are going to be banned for what they did, but really, they should be banned for the entire season for the sake of some their fan boys when they were crying out loud for Mclaren contorversy during the start of the season... ....

But, this is a wake up call for all the teams, many teams and drivers knowingly have driven their cars with some damage which could have put others at risk. Its very rare the stewards come to sense.
I hope they don't ban Renault for the next race as it would leave many of the fans disappointed because they would have paid for the tickets just to see Nando do things like getting the pole (in fumes ofcourse ). Let them ban Renault for the Spa.

[pabloh20]

abbas_gear, on 26 July 2009 - 09:50 PM, said:

Personally, I am really really happy to hear Renault are going to be banned for what they did, but really, they should be banned for the entire season for the sake of some their fan boys when they were crying out loud for Mclaren contorversy during the start of the season... ....

But, this is a wake up call for all the teams, many teams and drivers knowingly have driven their cars with some damage which could have put others at risk. Its very rare the stewards come to sense.
I hope they don't ban Renault for the next race as it would leave many of the fans disappointed because they would have paid for the tickets just to see Nando do things like getting the pole (in fumes ofcourse ). Let them ban Renault for the Spa.

I do believe you are what we call sh*t stirring, Abbas!

Personally, as I have said in t'other thread, I just can't imagine Renault sent Alonso out knowing the wheel was loose, it makes no sense.  If it had been Piquet...............no, I am just kidding.

However, I do believe Red Bull should be liable for some punishment for releasing Webber into the path of Kimi.  This has happened a few too many times these past couple of seasons across the various teams.  They have got away with it so far, in terms of an accident, but it's only a matter of time.  Considering the pit lane speed limit is normally 50mph (I think), there's still a potential for a crash with a fair amount of energy, especially when you have people so close.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

Motorsports are dangerous and always will be.

Sh#t happens.

And its usually the innocuous-looking accidents that have a freaky way of being the most lethal (e.g. young Surtees) and some of the more dramatic (e.g. Brundle's crash in Adelaide, Franchitti's flips in IRL, Villeneuve's BAR Spa crashes) the driver walks away unscratched.

I'm amazed we've gone this long in F1 without a more serious accident. However, I'm confident the cars are as safe as they can be.

[BradSpeedMan]

I'm really sad what happened with Felipe, but did'nt we ask for the fear factor to return. The incident still demonstrates how dangerous the sport can be, maybe we should all just realise what a remarkable job Mosley has done with the safety issue, and even his most fierce critic should recognise that. Part of debris falling off cars can't be stopped and things happen in the spur of the moment, one can't blame Brawn for something thats part of racing. Thats why it's labelled a freak accident!

Long ago pilots use to be gladiators on the field of battle, it was an honour to die with one eye on the beautiful girl in the stands, and the other tentatively on the road...why do I mention this, dunno, sounds good though....

[Argento Reloaded]

I was thinking all weekend about the weird things that happened in hungary... now I�m tired


Well, two lines of rest give me some new life, sort of!

Felipe�s accident was an accident but it is needed a close investigation from BrawnGP and FIA about the real cause of it. As I posted earlier I tend to think about the piece was pushed beyond it design parameters.
Kimi�s start was fine and should not be punished -as it happened.
Nando incident: if the rules say " in the event of a wheels is... Blah, blah... then the team must stop the car inmediatly" then the ban is right. If the rules rely on the team�s criteria then is raw material for discussion and could not been right.