Unwanted Luggage To Be Thrown Out.

[Jean Todt 4]

Fota agree to scrap Kers for 2010

Ferrari team boss Domenicali talks about the Kers system

The Formula One Teams' Association has agreed to abandon the energy storage and recovery system (Kers) for the 2010 season, BBC Sport understands.

The optional Kinetic Energy Recovery System can give cars a power boost, but only Ferrari and McLaren are now still using it seven races into the season.

Fota will drop it because of its poor uptake - and pressure from motorsport's governing body, the FIA, to cut costs.

Ferrari team boss Stefano Domenicali said it was a "logical decision".

We have invested a lot of money in it and it's difficult for the public to understand how there are cars with Kers and cars with no Kers

Ferrari team boss Stefano Domenicali When asked by BBC Sport F1 pundit Eddie Jordan ahead of the Turkish Grand Prix on Sunday if Fota teams had agreed and signed by democratic decision to abandon Kers next season in an earlier meeting, Domenicali confirmed that was the case.

"That is our position jointly," he said. "Of course we are the ones that are using it now with McLaren.

"We have invested a lot of money in it and it's difficult for the public to understand how there are cars with Kers and cars with no Kers.

"I think in the view of helping new teams to get into F1, and in order to save money, that is a logical decision - even if we have invested a lot of money in that project."

Under the rules at the start of this season, Kers - which provides drivers with an extra boost of power for 6.7 seconds per lap - would also be in place at the start of 2010.

The power - 80bhp - was also due to be increased next year, meaning all teams would have had to have had it in order to remain competitive.

But that will no longer be the case.

BBC Sport understands that Ferrari are desperate to drop their system because it has been so unreliable for them, while McLaren's package developed by Mercedes has proved more successful.

Though McLaren team boss Martin Whitmarsh is a fan of Kers, for a variety of reasons, he accepts that dropping it may be the only way forward.

Whitmarsh discusses Kers

"F1 has to demonstrate it has some green credentials," he told BBC Sport. "But, at the same time, in this economic climate everybody is looking to save costs.

"It has been a huge effort talking about new entrants and making sure these smaller teams stay in F1.

"McLaren's position is we would like to see Kers retained - but we also accept that we have to be responsible members of the F1 community and if the majority don't want to have Kers, or can't afford Kers at the moment, then we have to be realistic."

BMW Sauber and Renault both ran with Kers, which adds extra weight to the car, at the start of the season but both teams stopped experimenting with it after little success.

Championship pacesetters Brawn GP have no plans to introduce Kers to their cars.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport...one/8088272.stm

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Aha! So BMW have quitely ditched the system, when it was they who made the most noise about its advantage!

[Insider 0]

Great!

[F1 FANatic 1]

Finally some good news

[Max Mosley 2]

Yup. I've been embarrassed just watching these moppets trying to innovate. Best keep F1 nice and simple so the engineers can cope.

[TGLeungd Forever 0]

I like KERS, especially if it's used to overtake and then defend the racing line

[Rainmaster 7]

Yup. I've been embarrassed just watching these moppets trying to innovate. Best keep F1 nice and simple so the engineers can cope.

Well, at least your opinions are consistent

As for KERS, was always doomed to suck.

[yurp 0]

i've said it before and i'll say it again.

everyone thinks kers is crap because with the current limitations it is.

they capped the amount of recovered energy that could be used per lap in order to give non-kers teams a chance at being equal.

they set that cap so low that in the end the kers teams are hindered because lap time is more adversly affected by kers weight than positively affected from kers energy boost.

the whole implementation was/is a dogs dinner.

everyone keeps repeating the mantra 'kers is crap' ad nauseum without actually thinking about why or how it could be so much better.

all they needed to do was alow kers without a per-lap-limit on the energy used and every team would have invested, every team would be using it and every team would be getting a significant advantage out of it. it's yet another illustration o the FIA's gross incompetance.

how are teams supposed to innovate when their not allowed to take any advantage from their innovations?

f-ing stupid.

[yurp 0]

Notice also that neither Domenicali or Whitmarsh say they're dropping kers because its not good. (although ferrari's is s##te)

Also...

The power - 80bhp - was also due to be increased next year, meaning all teams would have had to have had it in order to remain competitive.

just when it was about to become worth it they're dropping it.

why.

cost saving.

right now ferrari and mcm want to keep the rest of FOTA happy, thi might have been a condition set out by the smaller FOTA teams for their continuing support in the FIA fued.

it's fair enough to knock kers off because it costs too much (which is what's happening), but everyone seems to think it's because it has no benefits, which is nonsense.

[Silas Talbot 0]

I think this can be read as another salvo in the FOTA/FIA battle for control of the rulebook.

Frankly, with the complete inconsistency/mismanagement of the rules, penalties, attempts at cost-cutting that we've seen from the FIA in the last several years, I think we should let the teams have a go at making the big decisions about to the future of this sport.

It couldn't be done any *worse*, so why not?

[F1 FANatic 1]

i've said it before and i'll say it again.

everyone thinks kers is crap because with the current limitations it is.

they capped the amount of recovered energy that could be used per lap in order to give non-kers teams a chance at being equal.

they set that cap so low that in the end the kers teams are hindered because lap time is more adversly affected by kers weight than positively affected from kers energy boost.

the whole implementation was/is a dogs dinner.

everyone keeps repeating the mantra 'kers is crap' ad nauseum without actually thinking about why or how it could be so much better.

all they needed to do was alow kers without a per-lap-limit on the energy used and every team would have invested, every team would be using it and every team would be getting a significant advantage out of it. it's yet another illustration o the FIA's gross incompetance.

how are teams supposed to innovate when their not allowed to take any advantage from their innovations?

f-ing stupid.

If they would allow unlimited KERS usage it would then just become the next Turbo type device. Two or three teams will lap 3 seconds faster then everybody else.

And not matter what, even if the they were allowed to use as much power and for as long as they wanted I would be against it. I have studies the plans from the teams this year a lot when the idea came about, its useless petty PR stuff that they have to bolt onto the car that has nothing to do with racing.

[Jean Todt 4]

i've said it before and i'll say it again.

everyone thinks kers is crap because with the current limitations it is.

they capped the amount of recovered energy that could be used per lap in order to give non-kers teams a chance at being equal.

they set that cap so low that in the end the kers teams are hindered because lap time is more adversly affected by kers weight than positively affected from kers energy boost.

the whole implementation was/is a dogs dinner.

everyone keeps repeating the mantra 'kers is crap' ad nauseum without actually thinking about why or how it could be so much better.

all they needed to do was alow kers without a per-lap-limit on the energy used and every team would have invested, every team would be using it and every team would be getting a significant advantage out of it. it's yet another illustration o the FIA's gross incompetance.

how are teams supposed to innovate when their not allowed to take any advantage from their innovations?

f-ing stupid.

I really didn't know they were limited, guess it was posted else where and I didn't read it, so its not an unwanted luggage at all.

At the same time, I am sure Mclaren could have kept up with Brawns with the weight they are carrying if only their aero was effecient.

So Mclaren and Ferrari have decided their championship is gone anyways, may be they will use this year as the testing time for KERS for their road cars. Good discession in my opinion.

[yurp 0]

If they would allow unlimited KERS usage it would then just become the next Turbo type device. Two or three teams will lap 3 seconds faster then everybody else.

not if everyone had it - which they would if they were allowed to get a significant advantage from it

And not matter what, even if the they were allowed to use as much power and for as long as they wanted I would be against it. I have studies the plans from the teams this year a lot when the idea came about, its useless petty PR stuff that they have to bolt onto the car that has nothing to do with racing.

hang on - if you're against kers because it 'has nothing to do with racing' then you should be against engines too.

i agree it's a lot about pr, but there's a big difference between kers and turbos.

using the same resources, fuel, engine power et al to go faster is exactly what racing is about and its exactly what F1 has always been about. people design better engines, kers should actually be included in them, but the teams and engine manufacturers are generally different people in F1.

it seems to me that these days we're expected to tut and then quickly ban any innovation in F1 - i'm surprised the diffuser didn't go the same way as mass dampers - which incidently shouldn't have been banned either.

[whiskee 0]

I thought this thread was about the latest cost-cutting arrangements of Ryanair and EasyJet.

I like KERS! Howzabout one manufacturer standardizing it for everyone.

[DOF_power 0]

I like KERS, especially if it's used to overtake and then defend the racing line

It was the same in the 80s.

Only difference is it was called turbo boost.

They banned supposedly to save money.

[DOF_power 0]

not if everyone had it - which they would if they were allowed to get a significant advantage from it

hang on - if you're against kers because it 'has nothing to do with racing' then you should be against engines too.

i agree it's a lot about pr, but there's a big difference between kers and turbos.

using the same resources, fuel, engine power et al to go faster is exactly what racing is about and its exactly what F1 has always been about. people design better engines, kers should actually be included in them, but the teams and engine manufacturers are generally different people in F1.

it seems to me that these days we're expected to tut and then quickly ban any innovation in F1 - i'm surprised the diffuser didn't go the same way as mass dampers - which incidently shouldn't have been banned either.

The current F1 KERS doesn't have anything to do with either production car KERS witch uses brakes of all 4 wheels (not engine braking of the rear or racing (30-35 kg for only 80 hp).

Remember that the turbos only turned the tide vs. the 1967 Cosworths when the where turning 200 to 300 extra horses, else their extra weight and packaging issues wasn't worth it.

Ditto for the active suspensions.

Unless a radical new technology won't provide 2-3 seconds extra per lap at a consistent level vs. the classic opposition, it's not worth it.

[DOF_power 0]

i've said it before and i'll say it again.

everyone thinks kers is crap because with the current limitations it is.

they capped the amount of recovered energy that could be used per lap in order to give non-kers teams a chance at being equal.

they set that cap so low that in the end the kers teams are hindered because lap time is more adversly affected by kers weight than positively affected from kers energy boost.

the whole implementation was/is a dogs dinner.

everyone keeps repeating the mantra 'kers is crap' ad nauseum without actually thinking about why or how it could be so much better.

all they needed to do was alow kers without a per-lap-limit on the energy used and every team would have invested, every team would be using it and every team would be getting a significant advantage out of it. it's yet another illustration o the FIA's gross incompetance.

how are teams supposed to innovate when their not allowed to take any advantage from their innovations?

f-ing stupid.

Exactly my point.

But now it's too late.

[DOF_power 0]

Yup. I've been embarrassed just watching these moppets trying to innovate. Best keep F1 nice and simple so the engineers can cope.

On the contrary, FIA should have never restricted KERS to 80 hp, nor implement restrictions of track testing, CFD and wind tunnel testing.

[mikathegreat2 2]

Eddie Jordan's gonna be delighted!

[The Rumble Strip 0]

What a waste of time that was then.

[DOF_power 0]

What a waste of time that was then.

And money.

[mikathegreat2 2]

What a waste of time that was then.

Here here!

[The Rumble Strip 0]

In the end, I had to side with Eddie Jordan.

What was the point in watching Rubens try to overtake Heikki yesterday, only for him to use his KERS to pull away.

[dribbler 6]

i've said it before and i'll say it again.

everyone thinks kers is crap because with the current limitations it is.

they capped the amount of recovered energy that could be used per lap in order to give non-kers teams a chance at being equal.

they set that cap so low that in the end the kers teams are hindered because lap time is more adversly affected by kers weight than positively affected from kers energy boost.

the whole implementation was/is a dogs dinner.

everyone keeps repeating the mantra 'kers is crap' ad nauseum without actually thinking about why or how it could be so much better.

all they needed to do was alow kers without a per-lap-limit on the energy used and every team would have invested, every team would be using it and every team would be getting a significant advantage out of it. it's yet another illustration o the FIA's gross incompetance.

how are teams supposed to innovate when their not allowed to take any advantage from their innovations?

f-ing stupid.

Totally agree. All this head burying is great but it won't stop the oil running out.

[Max Mosley 2]

On the contrary, FIA should have never restricted KERS to 80 hp, nor implement restrictions of track testing, CFD and wind tunnel testing.

That's not what the teams are proposing. It's only thanks to the FIA that we have KERS at all: it's now long after Max expected the teams to have KERS sorted, but rather than getting close to understanding it, they are busier than ever campaigning to scrap it. The teams have far better politicians than engineers and Max still runs rings round them.

[DOF_power 0]

That's not what the teams are proposing. It's only thanks to the FIA that we have KERS at all: it's now long after Max expected the teams to have KERS sorted, but rather than getting close to understanding it, they are busier than ever campaigning to scrap it. The teams have far better politicians than engineers and Max still runs rings round them.

McLaren had KERS in 2000/2001; Mosley said no way you're using that.

Williams was testing eCVTs in 1993, again Mosley banned them.

Until racing gets serious about production car KERS, a.k.a. unrestricted 4 wheel brake based flywheel KERS coupled to electronics now banned, instead of engine brake rear only batteries KERS, it's not worth it.

Either go all the way, or no way Jose.

As I said before:

Remember that the turbos only turned the tide vs. the 1967 Cosworths when the where turning 200 to 300 extra horses, else their extra weight and packaging issues wasn't worth it.

Ditto for the active suspensions.

Unless a radical new technology won't provide 2-3 seconds extra per lap at a consistent level vs. the classic opposition, it's not worth it.