Williams Retain Karthikeyan

[Max Mosley 2]

Our primary objection is to the fact that NK was pricing more worthy drivers out of a ride. If Gary does that I will object but based on what we know so far about him I think he's actually well qualified for the drive so thats not an issue. (Of course I do think the system of pay driving is wrong but thats not Gary's fault any more than Karty's.)

[pabloh20 1]

Now, as to your second paragraph - the sum to consider is not 3 million but perhaps 6 or 10 million because the qualified test drivers are actually paid quiet well for their work while Narain pays to do his. See, logic dictates that because the teams pay qualified testers, they have a positive value to the team which must be more than their salary, otherwise they wouldn't hire them. On the other hand, Narain had to pay for his position which means that he has a negative value. That negative value is the amount in dollar terms by which he falls short of being qualified for F1.

I thought the situation was that they were paying him to be a test driver, just that he has sponsorship? I may be mixed up on that, though.

I know what you're saying, Bajo, but even if it's $10m (presumably we are talking american dollars) then it's about

[bajo39 0]

I know what you're saying, Bajo, but even if it's $10m (presumably we are talking american dollars) then it's about

[Autumnpuma 0]

I must interject that anything arrived at by a 'consensus' is not a truth, merely a 'mutual agreement of discussed opinons'. I would think truth to be far better than a 'consensus'. With that in mind, I do believe that all this season, Sir Frank has been taking Narain's sponsorship money and hardly lets him into the car. What could be the reason for this? If you hire someone, you must want to get some service from that person, so what is Frank getting for employing Narain? In that vein, is WilliamsF1 even cutting Narain a paycheck or are Narain's sponsors paying him?

It seem to me that Bajo and Murray (among others) are of the opinon that:

1) Narian isn't good enough to be in Formula 1 and that he destroys the concept of Formula 1 being the 'best of the best'.

I agree, but with a stipulation attached: Formula 1 is about results and the mediocre don't last long. Teams will continue to employ the best drivers available and those drivers will be the benchmark for the rest of the grid. Those found wanting for too many years will vanish (Montiero, anyone?). As long as teams continue to seek the best, the driver's 'DNA' pool will not be watered down by a few less-than-great drivers.

2) That he is only currently in Formula 1 because of his personal sponsors.

This seems undeniable. For whatever reason, he was released from Jordan/Midland and secured a 'test' role with Williams. Tata adverts soon appeared on the nose of the Williams. One could argue that Frank saw some worth in Narain as a tester, and that would lead into the next point:

3) That he isn't contributing to the team that 'employs' him.

In my view, he isn't. Williams have employed Gene, Pizzonia and Wurz as testers and actually used them in that capacity. Narain rarely ventures on-track; the brunt of the testing is done with Wurz and the two race-drivers. One would have to ask, if Williams had Alex Wurz as a tester, what would be the reason for taking on Narain, then rarely using him? The only conlclusion would be that Williams is using Narain for the sponsorship dollars he brings.

Stopkidding has mentioned that other drivers could be employed for more money...which ones? The TATA sponsorship on the nose of the Williams brings the team considerable money, and no doubt that money would go to any team willling to hire Narain....

[stopkidding 0]

Our primary objection is to the fact that NK was pricing more worthy drivers out of a ride. If Gary does that I will object but based on what we know so far about him I think he's actually well qualified for the drive so thats not an issue. (Of course I do think the system of pay driving is wrong but thats not Gary's fault any more than Karty's.)

Finally some having a reasonable discussion about this, I appreciate this. As I have mentioned many times, I care little about Narain. He had his shot at F1, did his country proud and thats about it. But I do consider him to be sufficiently qualified (again, I just going by this junior record and comparing that with the junior records of similar drivers) to be an F1 pay driver and similarly sufficiently qualified to be a test driver on merit. What you Narain bashers fail to recognize or refuse to acknowledge is that there are far more wealthy pay drivers who can grab similar roles at Williams, drivers with more resources and backing than Narain. The Tata deal with Williams is so insignificant in F1 terms that Williams would not jeopardize their team results but handing out joy rides to every spoilt boy that comes their way. Narain is by no means exceptional or even good. He is the average crop of F1 drivers that occupy the back of the F1 grid. You have to understand that a lot of the established drivers including the current and possibly the 2006 world champion were all pay drivers to start with.

So I find it very odd and unreasonable that you folks would want to single Narain out without showing why you consider his driving to be inadequate. In the absence of a clear objective argument against Narain's ability a lot of your statements seem biased and hence can be misconstrued to be racist

does that make sense?

seriously sometimes I get the impression I am arguing with really insecure teenagers here.

[Autumnpuma 0]

I am not racist at all, stop, if you want to, please feel free to start one of these threads on Scott Speed and see what happens...

....Americans will post to defend him, just like Indians post to defend Narain. The difference is that we won't be hollering 'racist' at the non-caucasian posters for disliking Speed. We will holler 'you all hate Americans' instead

[bajo39 0]

Let me fetch you an article I posted some weeks ago that addresses Narain's contribution to the team.

Here's one article but it's not the one I wanted to get for you:

Secondary [read: paying] team tester Narain Karthikeyan is hoping to replace Alex Wurz when Williams' official 'third' driver moves into the race seat in 2007.

The 29-year-old Indian, who stepped into the sport's background following his unspectacular debut for Jordan in 2005, is reportedly near a deal to land Wurz's job after convincing backer 'Tata' to renew their association with Sir Frank Williams' British team.

Evidence of a burgeoning role for Karthikeyan is his schedule to join Williams' four-day test at Silverstone next week.

He told the Calcutta-based Telegraph newspaper: ''I would like to take Alex Wurz's place.''

The newspaper said that a 'final decision' about Karthikeyan's role for 2007 'should be known sooner than later'.

Narain continued: ''I am in discussions. We will come to know about it in a few weeks' time.''

[stopkidding 0]

I am not racist at all, stop, if you want to, please feel free to start one of these threads on Scott Speed and see what happens...

....Americans will post to defend him, just like Indians post to defend Narain. The difference is that we won't be hollering 'racist' at the non-caucasian posters for disliking Speed. We will holler 'you all hate Americans' instead

Read my edit Puma,

Scott Speed is reasobably talented and is doing a good job against Liuzzi, sure he got an relatively easy ride into F1 through RedBull, but it doesn't matter how you got your ride as long as your drive to prove your ability. All suggestion that F1 should return or will return to its puritant roots of racing are very naive.

[bajo39 0]

Here is the article I wanted:

India's Narain Karthikeyan is hopeful of extending his tenure as a Williams test driver in 2007.

The Indian 29-year-old debuted last season, but after failing to impress his Jordan/Midland chiefs moved to Sir Frank Williams' squad this year as development ace Alex Wurz's test deputy.

With Wurz graduating to the racing role for 2007, Karthikeyan - whose team job this year has been limited to mainly acting as a representative for personal sponsor 'Tata' - this week expressed optimism that there will be room for him at Grove.

''I hope my future is at Williams,'' he was quoted as saying by United News Of India agency.

Karthikeyan added: ''I'm hopeful of a good seat in 2007. ''Sir Frank Williams is always commending my performance and let's see how it pans out.''

[stopkidding 0]

Here's one article but it's not the one I wanted to get for you:

Secondary [read: paying] team tester Narain Karthikeyan is hoping to replace Alex Wurz when Williams' official 'third' driver moves into the race seat in 2007.

The 29-year-old Indian, who stepped into the sport's background following his unspectacular debut for Jordan in 2005, is reportedly near a deal to land Wurz's job after convincing backer 'Tata' to renew their association with Sir Frank Williams' British team.

Evidence of a burgeoning role for Karthikeyan is his schedule to join Williams' four-day test at Silverstone next week.

He told the Calcutta-based Telegraph newspaper: ''I would like to take Alex Wurz's place.''

The newspaper said that a 'final decision' about Karthikeyan's role for 2007 'should be known sooner than later'.

Narain continued: ''I am in discussions. We will come to know about it in a few weeks' time.''

so whats the golden nugget here? It is no secret that Tata are in it for Narain, they are using Narain and Narain is using Tata. Its a mutual deal here.

Why don't I see articles about Paffett and Mercedes, Scott Speed and Redbull, Banesto and Alonso etc etc. Its called sponsorship!!!

[bajo39 0]

so whats the golden nugget here? It is no secret that Tata are in it for Narain, they are using Narain and Narain is using Tata. Its a mutual deal here.

The other poster, Pabloh, was confused as to Narain's role in the team. He thought it unlikely that Narain be more of a PR representative for Tata than a contributing team tester but of course the article asserts that exactly this is the case!

[pumpdoc 2]

A return to mechanical grip would do it. The '08 rules mostly put us in the right direction...

........or watching a Champcar race.

[bajo39 0]

........or watching a Champcar race.

Have you seen the new development Panoz chassis, the PD01 or whatever it's called? Looks promising...

[pumpdoc 2]

Have you seen the new development Panoz chassis, the PD01 or whatever it's called? Looks promising...

Yes, pick up the current issue of Racecar enginerig it has the low down on this car.

[Max Mosley 2]

Finally some having a reasonable discussion about this, I appreciate this.

No problem.

So I find it very odd and unreasonable that you folks would want to single Narain out without showing why you consider his driving to be inadequate. In the absence of a clear objective argument against Narain's ability a lot of your statements seem biased and hence can be misconstrued to be racist

does that make sense?

Yes. It makes perfect sense but I still think you're wrong to label us as racist. I, and probably I speak for everyone here, have never singled out Narain as the worst pay driver in the world - in fact I keep keep keep saying there have been worse, notably in the abomination that is Super Aguri. Nevertheless, he falls well within the class of pay drivers undeserving of a place amongst the best of the best. Thus I object to his presence, especially when he was racing. The point about Paffett is that he might, like Justin Wilson perhaps, and Schumi before him, actually deserve a place in F1. Its sad that they all have to pay at first but I don't blame any of them for doing it. I do however blame undeserving drivers who price worthier men out of F1.

seriously sometimes I get the impression I am arguing with really insecure teenagers here.

Yes, I think we probably are. They seem to be on your side though so be nice to them!

[Autumnpuma 0]

Read my edit Puma,

Scott Speed is reasobably talented and is doing a good job against Liuzzi, sure he got an relatively easy ride into F1 through RedBull, but it doesn't matter how you got your ride as long as your drive to prove your ability. All suggestion that F1 should return or will return to its puritant roots of racing are very naive.

Got your edit

[stopkidding 0]

No problem.

Yes. It makes perfect sense but I still think you're wrong to label us as racist. I, and probably I speak for everyone here, have never singled out Narain as the worst pay driver in the world - in fact I keep keep keep saying there have been worse, notably in the abomination that is Super Aguri.

I agree with you here, though no other driver has been so brutally butchered at the hands of the forum like Narain, wih narain the only difference is that the India fans actually stand up for their guy....

take the starting grid for the past 20 years and the bottom 5 always have been mediocre drivers, no better or worse than Narain. THIS IS THE ONLY POINT I KEEP MAKING....

Nevertheless, he falls well within the class of pay drivers undeserving of a place amongst the best of the best.

I can buy this argument as well....nothing wrong with it considering former Pay drivers have become World Champions....

Thus I object to his presence, especially when he was racing. The point about Paffett is that he might, like Justin Wilson perhaps, and Schumi before him, actually deserve a place in F1. Its sad that they all have to pay at first but I don't blame any of them for doing it. I do however blame undeserving drivers who price worthier men out of F1.

Yes, I think we probably are. They seem to be on your side though so be nice to them!

This is the only point of contention, the entire forum singling Narain as being the only case where a mediocre driver bought a pay drive. This happens all the time. And the one final point is regarding his test drive at williams. I am willing to agree that Narain might not have excelled at Jordan (though he was no worse than Monteiro). But i still think his test drive at Williams is because he is qualified enough to pilot a F1 car and be of some value to Williams. The position is not a pay drive as Williams actually pay Narain to be a test driver (sure Narain brings the TATA money) but still, there is no shortage of eager young drivers with money who would want a test driver role at Williams Grand Prix!!!

now tell me, what am I saying wrong here?

[mock 0]

I think the Indian contingent would like the pay-drive/test system to continue in F1 because, as I said earlier, they seem to care not for the reputation of the sport but only for the participation of their countryman and on any terms I might add. Let's see if they say otherwise?

The abolition of the pay-drive/test system will ultimately lead to the demise of the independent teams like Williams, Spyker and SA (that is currently 6 cars)- who knows, this may extend to RB. This will also lead to the grid being dominated by the manufacturing teams with access to huge funds, which will lead to further refinements in technology in order to gain even 1/1000th of an advantage on the grid, which will again reduce the reliance on driver skill.

Do you want to see the grid without the current backmarkers?. Do you want to see a grid with 10 - 12 cars ?Or do you want to see a full grid with 3 Ferraris, 3 Renaults, 4 Mclarens or whatever the numbers dictate ? Wouldn't that be supremely boring ? Do you want to see the major teams putting in more and more money to gain technological advantages to avoid becoming backmarkers? Do you seriously think the major teams would agree to reductions in technology as you advocate in another post in variou thread. F1, whether you like it or not, is a technology sport, dictated at the cutting edge of racing technology.

What reputation of the sport are you talking about ? Is F1 less popular or losing any of its reputation among anybody (except some warped and demented individuals on this forum) for the participation of the likes of TM, TS, YI, Yamamoto, Scott Speed, VL, NK or any of the other back markers?. I am indeed saddened to lose the likes of Minardi, Arrows and Jordan or even Benetton.

I believe they also have their parts to play in the popularity of the sport. Would you like to see the US Open with 128 Roger Federers playing against each other ? What about the concept of choosing a race driver you like and admire, taking sides, supporting the underdog? Isn't that what sports is about? To be content in life one most have the realisation that there is always someone who is greater or lesser than you.

[mock 0]

With that in mind, I do believe that all this season, Sir Frank has been taking Narain's sponsorship money and hardly lets him into the car. What could be the reason for this? If you hire someone, you must want to get some service from that person, so what is Frank getting for employing Narain?

I do feel that there must be a level of confidence in Narains abilities to have him have the first test of the new Williams Toyota car, and to continue to use him for testing it. I don't see any problem in having Wurz do the bulk of the testing - first of all he is far more experienced than NK, and he's being paid well to do it.

[pabloh20 1]

Bajo - thanks for the articles, appreciate it.

Firstly, let me say that there have been some very good points from both sides in the last couple of pages, I hope we can all agree on that, even if you don't necessarily agree with the opinion of the other person.

Stopkidding - I think that there are quite a few drivers in F1 that get a bit of a bashing (just see the should sato be punished thread !! ), it just so happens that this particular thread was started about Williams retaining NK and it snowballed from there. I am fairly certain that if threads were started about a few other drivers then it would be just as bad, if not worse! So I have to say, with hopefully a completely unbiased opinion, that I don't think NK was being singled out as such - I am a relative newcomer to these forums and I don't really get that impression. I hope that eases your mind a bit.

Mock - yes, that is one of my concerns too, regarding the possible demise of some teams. I have not really given it much thought in recent years with regards to paid drivers, but I am sure there must be other ways of getting round the situation. Hopefully, with the continued attempt to drive down the costs in F1, there may be more leeway for the teams with less money to do just that. I also know what you're saying with regards to other sports and there always being a complete diversity of talent. In some respects you're right and I agree with the essence of what you're saying. The slight difference with regards to F1 is that there is a very limited number that can take part, whereas golf, for example when they have an open, virtually anybody can take part, up to a point. It's only really in motorsports that you have such limited numbers of competitors, I think.

Pumpdoc - I used to watch cart/champ car (I think it was all one series then ??) when Mansell was in it in 93 and really enjoyed it. However, time constraints (family ) and time difference mean I don't get to watch it these days and have not followed it for some time.

[cavallino 2]

Ok this is going to be a long one, don't blame me if the forum is broken again tomorrow

The fact that the best drivers we know about can't get into F1 because less worthy people have bought their places instead doesn't sadden you?

The fact that the best drivers that may exist never get into F1 because they don't have the oppurtunity or cannot afford it doesn't sadden you? Doesn't the far bigger problem, that the entire talent pool of F1 is a few thousand, maybe a hundred thousand men, isn't that a far bigger problem than a single pay driver in your idealized quest for having the best 22/24 out of the over 6 billion people in the world driving in F1?

Much easier would be to ensure that the best drivers we know about can get a seat in F1. It is a practical step in the right direction.

Practical? You are going to free the world of motorsport of pay drivers? Conveniently forgetting the fact that drivers like Alonso and Michael also made it originally as pay drivers. Are you aware that the prime reason Jordan gave Michael a shot was the money. Do you thing it is a coincidence that the trio of Wendlinger(sp?), Frentzen and Schumacher, all Germans were backed by a German company. Do you think it is a coincidence that BMW are interested in Ralf more than Trulli? You pretend to be arguing a principle, but you aren't, you are just picking one manifestation and arguing against it. That is just personal bias, whatever it may be founded on. How exactly are you going to solve the problem that you need money to get into motorsport? By protesting against one pay driver?

Generally speaking more talented people deserve more respect and support.

We should all support one or two drivers then? Have you ever used this argument against anybody except Karthikeyan (and maybe Sato) supporters on this board?

Again you've misunderstood. A while back, I suggested that, far from me being racist, on this issue its actually you Indians who are. If I said I hated karty because he was Indian no doubt you'd all claim I was racist, but you only support him because of that! Talk about being hoised by one's own petard.

That's the way it works. Saying you dislike a driver because he is Indian doesn't really make you racist as long as you have nothing to do with the decision making process in F1. Liking or disliking drivers isn't based on any rational grounds, just about everyone including your loyal yes man/alternate identity bajo supports their local boy. But don't forget the nuances. Saying you hate him because he is Indian increases the possibility that your fanaticism extends beyond sport, just like saying that you would exclusively support Indian drivers increases that too. You would have noticed that none of the members here is primarily a Narain supporter, every single one who supports them supports another driver/ team too, and most of the time to a greater extent.

NK isn't good enough to be in F1. Thats it. Period.

Ironically enough, he isn't in F1, unlike the 6 pay drivers on the current grid that you strangely ignore. You take more interest in protesting a driver who is not in F1, rather than ones who are, and who I presume you object to on principle. I don't remember you making these remarks in the Scott Speed threads, or the Monteiro threads or Albers threads/ discussions. No, you solely pick on any thread about NK, and exhort those 'principles.

I would suggest you have a more open mind. You have simply been indoctrinated into thinking "patriotism good, racism bad". The same national and racial bias that leads to one is the basis for the other. If I were to offer Joe Bloggs $3million so that he could immediately replace Karty as Williams test driver purely because I preferred to see Brits doing well rather than Asians, would I be being patriotic or racist? What about if Frank always offered the drive to Brits, regardless of merit - patriotic or racist?

Where exactly has this 3 million figure come from? It may be right, however I need a source, a reliable one.

Again you are mistaken. Tata do not support Narain solely because he is Indian, it is based on a variety of factors. For example Deutsche Vermogensberatung (wrong spelling surely) won't suddenly switch their support to the same extent to the next available German driver when Michael retires. If Narain had to stop racing for some reason, Tata won't suddenly offer the same amount of money to appoint the next available Indian driver as a test driver for Williams. Him being Indian is one of the factors - which is not unique in F1, just like Nick Heidfeld being German is a factor in him getting a BMW drive.

I will reply properly to the Indians when one of them takes up my main post's points. No doubt this will be left to the increasingly irate Cav.

Really? Much of the forum sees you lot as arguing against what is plainly obvious

Speak for yourself.

It's all a strange feeling of deja vu, hearing the same lame arguments from you, and having to make the same point over and over again.

, ie that Narain doesn't belong in F1,

That is not even the point under discussion..

but in favour of your countryman and we all know how crazily nationalistic Indians are, and especially the media.

No more than any other country. Actually I feel that Australians are more so - just an observation.

I guess they would have quite an easy job of indoctrinating you lot given that F1 isn't even broadcast and the country

If you mean India, what gave you that strange idea India get's all qualifying and races live - more than I can say about Britain and Australia.

I detect a faux pas from our Canadian correspondent, n'est-ce pas?

A rather revealing one, if I do say so myself.

Sorry, I've got this bloody woman yammering in my ear...

What is this faux pas you speak of? Describing the Indians as a "lot"? Poor form you say? Bollocks! They are all of the same opinion on this matter. In such circumstances it is appropriate to group them for purposes of discussion. Their 'lot' is of one view and I am of another.

Are you of the view that Narain deserves a spot in F1 or not?

Define that view plese, let us draw our lines. Whether Narain deserves a place in F1 or not is hardly the argument - many Indian posters have argued that he deserves it as much as any other pay driver on the grid. Are you contradicting that, that he deserves it less than other pay drivers? If not, what is the precise opinion that I hold that makes me part of that group, I am quite perturbed.

I've managed to argue that NK deserves his seat,

So has everyone else apparently

In fact, it is downright deceitful of you to try and hijack this thread from the wide-ranging philosophical debate it was into a petty argument over minutiae - and irrelevant minutiae at that.

and..

No sir. To the extent that something can be done, complacency is not the answer to get it done. In fact, we must gaurd against the sort of thinking you propose because complacency is an insidious sort of thing. It has been said that it creeps into our lives like a subtle haze, covering everything in a damp motionless blanket of indifference.

History is full of examples of the outcomes of complacent individuals. Albert Einstein wrote that

[pabloh20 1]

It's not solely this thread, there is a long history. A quick search would show you.

No. Try it. I have made threads about Speed, Monteiro etc., they have barely gone for a page. Yet as soon as it's NK some people decide to take a stand 'on principle'.

Cav - as I said, I'm a relative newcomer to these forums and I don't detect a particular bias against NK, however, I have not done a search for any past arguments on the matter. I am only giving my honest opinion on things as I see them.

In the short time I have been here, I have seen Sato get a fair bit of bandwidth as has NK. Mind you having said that, Alonso & Schumacher get a fair bit of slating too.

[mock 0]

Wurz might be the better tester, however that is not adequate reason to conclude that he is not contributing.

I keep on forgetting who has the fastest non F1 lap time at Interlagos. Refresh my memory would you there Cav old chap ??

[cavallino 2]

Oh and for the record NK is testing alongside Wurz at Jerez, to respond to someone who said that Wurz could have done it all by himself.

[goferrarigo 0]

nice long post(221) cav almost about half a page

Pabloh - sato has got only 3 pages or so nd this has gone to 8.

and the reason why sk and cav are fighting is this discussion of NK has been going on for long and allways has ended with the thread being locked. This topic keeps resurfacing in about 2-3 months. So very soon you shall another topic where again the same arguemnets will go on.