Williams Retain Karthikeyan

[cavallino 2]

Oh. So you agree he made a mockery of our sport last year?

Do you say that Scott Speed, Christijan Albers, Tiago Monteiro, Takuma Sato, Sakon Yamamoto and Robert Doornbos are making a mockery of the sport this year? (Good heavens that is more than a quarter of the grid, the sport must be a real joke then, wonder why you bother watching?)

[Jean Todt 4]

Do you say that Scott Speed, Christijan Albers, Tiago Monteiro, Takuma Sato, Sakon Yamamoto and Robert Doornbos are making a mockery of the sport this year? (Good heavens that is more than a quarter of the grid, the sport must be a real joke then, wonder why you bother watching?)

good question!

[mock 0]

You are making yourself look stupid. First I was referring to the Indians on here, almost all of whom except loser boy, do support Karty. Where are the Indians that don't support Karty? In fact before him we had only a few Indian posters and their quality was a lot higher. Your NH NK comparison is laughable. Are you seriously suggesting NK is a better prospect than NH was after his debut season?

You ARE stupid . Where are the Austrailians that don't support MW, or the Germans that don't support MS, or the Polish that don't support Kubica, or the Portugese who don't support Tiago. NK had a better season with Jordan than NH had, do the research yourself, I've done it once, I've posted it once, if once isn't enough for it to sink into certain heads lined inside with intelligence repelling fat, that's not my problem.

He provided a factual argument, contrary to the angry drivel that your lot issue. And since there was no complaint as to his post - except from the Indian quarter - I would say that the forum generally condones what was said.

I don't get it because it doesn't make any sense. There is no basis to suggest that Karthikeyan outperformed Heidfeld as Ctrl adequately demonstrated.

Bajo, I didn't think that even you would support the personal attack made on Cav and the kind of filthy language used..........if you condone it, it leaves me with a sense of sadness

Ctrl has never demonstrated anything adequately except it's sick and twisted mind and filthy mouth.....

If you believe that that is an 'adequate demonstration' compared to the race to race analysis provided by me earlier, then indeed you are prejudiced. And a prejudiced mind can never provide any kind of rational arguments................

[Max Mosley 2]

just as much as all pay drivers do. Like monteiro continues to do, just like Sato and Yamamoto continue to do....yes in that respect yes.

Ok. At least one Indian has the integrity to admit Karty made a mockery of the sport.

Do you say that Scott Speed, Christijan Albers, Tiago Monteiro, Takuma Sato, Sakon Yamamoto and Robert Doornbos are making a mockery of the sport this year? (Good heavens that is more than a quarter of the grid, the sport must be a real joke then, wonder why you bother watching?)

Probably for the same reason most people do: for the other 3/4 of the grid! That is, for those drivers who can get a job based on their talent rather than their ability to pay. If you paid attention you'd know I am highly critical of the way the sport is run, and the likes of Karty are testament to the scale of the problems.

Now a question for you: does the fact that people can buy a seat in F1 that should have gone to someone more deserving not sadden you and does it not make a mockery of a sport when this can happen? How would you feel if I could buy someone's place in the Indian cricket team?

You ARE stupid .

Oh well that proves it then.

Where are the Austrailians that don't support MW, or the Germans that don't support MS, or the Polish that don't support Kubica, or the Portugese who don't support Tiago.

Where are the Aussies, Germans, Poles and Portugese that claimed there are "more fans of MS or BMW" etc than their idols in their own countries? MS, MW, RK are many leagues above NK anyway, so your argument fails twice. Furthermore giving examples of national bias in other countries in no way exonerates Indians of their bias: thats 3 times.

NK had a better season with Jordan than NH had, do the research yourself, I've done it once, I've posted it once, if once isn't enough for it to sink into certain heads lined inside with intelligence repelling fat, that's not my problem.

Isn't it funny how everyone in F1 agrees with me that NH is better than NK? I guess Ron, Frank and Flavio et al are suffering from the same condition.

[mock 0]

Ok. At least one Indian has the integrity to admit Karty made a mockery of the sport.

He was drunk when he wrote thta

Probably for the same reason most people do: for the other 3/4 of the grid! That is, for those drivers who can get a job based on their talent rather than their ability to pay. If you paid attention you'd know I am highly critical of the way the sport is run, and the likes of Karty are testament to the scale of the problems.

You can always stop watching

Now a question for you: does the fact that people can buy a seat in F1 that should have gone to someone more deserving not sadden you and does it not make a mockery of a sport when this can happen? How would you feel if I could buy someone's place in the Indian cricket team?

Who says places aren't bought ? Though I doubt you would even play enough cricket to buy yourself the drink boys spot

Oh well that proves it then.

Where are the Aussies, Germans, Poles and Portugese that claimed there are "more fans of MS or BMW" etc than their idols in their own countries? MS, MW, RK are many leagues above NK anyway, so your argument fails twice. Furthermore giving examples of national bias in other countries in no way exonerates Indians of their bias: thats 3 times.

First line does not make any sense to me - what are you trying to say ?

So you say that other countries should be able to love and respect and be behind sports stars from their own countries, but if Indians do it that's biased.

Isn't it funny how everyone in F1 agrees with me that NH is better than NK? I guess Ron, Frank and Flavio et al are suffering from the same condition.

That's very poor generalisation, or you're just feeling pompous. To assume NK is in F1 just because of sponsorship is ludicrous and insane.

[Jean Todt 4]

Ok. At least one Indian has the integrity to admit Karty made a mockery of the sport.

Probably for the same reason most people do: for the other 3/4 of the grid! That is, for those drivers who can get a job based on their talent rather than their ability to pay. If you paid attention you'd know I am highly critical of the way the sport is run, and the likes of Karty are testament to the scale of the problems.

Now a question for you: does the fact that people can buy a seat in F1 that should have gone to someone more deserving not sadden you and does it not make a mockery of a sport when this can happen? How would you feel if I could buy someone's place in the Indian cricket team?

Oh well that proves it then.

Where are the Aussies, Germans, Poles and Portugese that claimed there are "more fans of MS or BMW" etc than their idols in their own countries? MS, MW, RK are many leagues above NK anyway, so your argument fails twice. Furthermore giving examples of national bias in other countries in no way exonerates Indians of their bias: thats 3 times.

Isn't it funny how everyone in F1 agrees with me that NH is better than NK? I guess Ron, Frank and Flavio et al are suffering from the same condition.

first of all nk had just one season! secondly he was driving a car that was in minardi's league.. he has out performed his team mate a lot of time, and he had technical problems now and then, and he couldnt really push the car to max several times. some idiots here have never followed his progress the way his fans do! since he is an indian his fans(indians) naturally follow him more than others do. i am not accusing of you guys being racist or any crap. it just shows how ignorant some idiots(members) are!

he has suerly done much better than sato during his debut season! now i can expect guys like bajo to start ranting utter crap! nk has crashed a couple of times, but not the way sato did. and sato still drives like an idiot.

ps note..i dont mean to say nk is a better driver than sato or vice versa...both these drivers constantly pushed their cars to limit and paid their price. anyways, one should consider the fact that, sato was actually thrown out of honda because of his pathetic driving, even though sato was recieving charity from them! he is back only becasue he is the most experienced jap around!

[cavallino 2]

Ok. At least one Indian has the integrity to admit Karty made a mockery of the sport.

Probably for the same reason most people do: for the other 3/4 of the grid! That is, for those drivers who can get a job based on their talent rather than their ability to pay. If you paid attention you'd know I am highly critical of the way the sport is run, and the likes of Karty are testament to the scale of the problems.

Why single him out then? I don't ever see you posting to address that problem itself, or ever criticising most of those other drivers, all I see is criticism of NK without any attempt to make a case to prove your point.

Now a question for you: does the fact that people can buy a seat in F1 that should have gone to someone more deserving not sadden you

Sadden me? Why would it sadden me? You are using the example of cricket - that is completely different. You need money for motorsport. Does it sadden you that 99.99% of the people in the world cannot ever afford or dream of going motor racing and drive in formula 1? Imagine how many Schumachers we might have missed. Does that sadden you? Does it sadden you that instead of seeing the best drivers in the world all you see is the best drivers from rich families in first world countries, whose parents encourage them in motorsport at an early age? You must be an awfully sad person then, watching a race must be a profoundly depressing experience, and imagining all those Schumachers not having the chance to enter the sport. There is probably a Schumacher born every day, or many. Does that sadden you?

Where are the Aussies, Germans, Poles and Portugese that claimed there are "more fans of MS or BMW" etc than their idols in their own countries? MS, MW, RK are many leagues above NK anyway, so your argument fails twice.

And? So only winners, only the best drivers should have support? Why do people even bother with lower categories then, why suport a GP2 driver or a champcar driver, or an F3 driver? They don't deserve to be supported, they're not good enough according to your theory. What constitutes a driver worth supporting in your opinion? A world champion? A race winner? Was Jenson worth supporting before he won a race or were millions just crazy? I don't even understand what you are saying with your first sentence, however there are plenty of people who watch the sport for just one driver - our JV fans who have disappeared are just one example.

Furthermore giving examples of national bias in other countries in no way exonerates Indians of their bias: thats 3 times.

Exonerate someone of national bias? Why would someone want to do that? So you find supporting any driver unreasonable, unless it can be rationally explained? National bias is not acceptable, but choosing the driver you support based on appearance, personality etc. is? In that case you have a disagreement with almost every single person on this board, since noone should be supporting anyone, perhaps except Alonso and Michael since they aren't good enough. What kind of bias is acceptable?

So why do you pick on NK then? What has he ever done to you? Why not all the other pay drivers? Why not all the other people who support drivers based on nationality or something equally 'unexonerable' like apearance? Don't pretend that you are taking a stand based on principle - you are not. For whatever reason, either you are just trying to provoke people or you have some personal hatred against NK and his supporters. Whatever it is, it's not rationally defensible, so don't even try. Just say I don't like him because he is ugly, because he is short, because he is Indian, because he is dark, because he is vegetarian or whatever. You have no moral high ground, don't pretend you do.

[Max Mosley 2]

I'll just reply to you since you've all repeated the same things.

Why single him out then? I don't ever see you posting to address that problem itself, or ever criticising most of those other drivers, all I see is criticism of NK without any attempt to make a case to prove your point.

I think you'll find I've been criticising Sato over the last few days alone, in the Sato punishment thread. Ide and Yamamoto are worse but of course not even the likes of the poster Sato try to justify their presence in F1, therefore I can't say much about them. If you check this thread alone you'll find my suggestion about how F1 should be run, and Dan gave his thoughts. Of course most just ignored it.

Sadden me? Why would it sadden me? You are using the example of cricket - that is completely different. You need money for motorsport. Does it sadden you that 99.99% of the people in the world cannot ever afford or dream of going motor racing and drive in formula 1? Imagine how many Schumachers we might have missed. Does that sadden you? Does it sadden you that instead of seeing the best drivers in the world all you see is the best drivers from rich families in first world countries, whose parents encourage them in motorsport at an early age? You must be an awfully sad person then, watching a race must be a profoundly depressing experience, and imagining all those Schumachers not having the chance to enter the sport. There is probably a Schumacher born every day, or many. Does that sadden you?

The fact that the best drivers we know about can't get into F1 because less worthy people have bought their places instead doesn't sadden you? That says it all really. You're right that poverty all over the world is a big issue which does indeed sadden me. You're also right that different levels of parental encouragement are unfair. Both those problems affect many aspect of life and are somewhat hard to solve. Much easier would be to ensure that the best drivers we know about can get a seat in F1. It is a practical step in the right direction.

And? So only winners, only the best drivers should have support? Why do people even bother with lower categories then, why suport a GP2 driver or a champcar driver, or an F3 driver? They don't deserve to be supported, they're not good enough according to your theory. What constitutes a driver worth supporting in your opinion? A world champion? A race winner? Was Jenson worth supporting before he won a race or were millions just crazy? I don't even understand what you are saying with your first sentence, however there are plenty of people who watch the sport for just one driver - our JV fans who have disappeared are just one example.

Generally speaking more talented people deserve more respect and support. Regarding the first sentence, I was pointing out the contradiction in their posts. Read back again to figure it out.

Exonerate someone of national bias? Why would someone want to do that? So you find supporting any driver unreasonable, unless it can be rationally explained? National bias is not acceptable, but choosing the driver you support based on appearance, personality etc. is? In that case you have a disagreement with almost every single person on this board, since noone should be supporting anyone, perhaps except Alonso and Michael since they aren't good enough. What kind of bias is acceptable?

Again you've misunderstood. A while back, I suggested that, far from me being racist, on this issue its actually you Indians who are. If I said I hated karty because he was Indian no doubt you'd all claim I was racist, but you only support him because of that! Talk about being hoised by one's own petard.

So why do you pick on NK then? What has he ever done to you? Why not all the other pay drivers? Why not all the other people who support drivers based on nationality or something equally 'unexonerable' like apearance? Don't pretend that you are taking a stand based on principle - you are not. For whatever reason, either you are just trying to provoke people or you have some personal hatred against NK and his supporters. Whatever it is, it's not rationally defensible, so don't even try. Just say I don't like him because he is ugly, because he is short, because he is Indian, because he is dark, because he is vegetarian or whatever. You have no moral high ground, don't pretend you do.

On the contrary I've answered all your questions and feel I have all the moral high ground. NK isn't good enough to be in F1. Thats it. Period.

[bajo39 0]

To assume NK is in F1 just because of sponsorship is ludicrous and insane.

Really? I think almost the entire forum is of that belief and I'm sure that a good portion of your hyper-nationalistic Indian friends are too.

I'll just reply to you since you've all repeated the same things.

I think you'll find I've been criticising Sato over the last few days alone, in the Sato punishment thread. Ide and Yamamoto are worse but of course not even the likes of the poster Sato try to justify their presence in F1, therefore I can't say much about them. If you check this thread alone you'll find my suggestion about how F1 should be run, and Dan gave his thoughts. Of course most just ignored it.

The fact that the best drivers we know about can't get into F1 because less worthy people have bought their places instead doesn't sadden you? That says it all really. You're right that poverty all over the world is a big issue which does indeed sadden me. You're also right that different levels of parental encouragement are unfair. Both those problems affect many aspect of life and are somewhat hard to solve. Much easier would be to ensure that the best drivers we know about can get a seat in F1. It is a practical step in the right direction.

Generally speaking more talented people deserve more respect and support. Regarding the first sentence, I was pointing out the contradiction in their posts. Read back again to figure it out.

Again you've misunderstood. A while back, I suggested that, far from me being racist, on this issue its actually you Indians who are. If I said I hated karty because he was Indian no doubt you'd all claim I was racist, but you only support him because of that! Talk about being hoised by one's own petard.

On the contrary I've answered all your questions and feel I have all the moral high ground. NK isn't good enough to be in F1. Thats it. Period.

Undeniable logic, Murray.

I've highlighted a portion I'd like to make particular comment on. I think it's clear that the Indians are fans of themselves ahead of the sport. That is, their love for the sport is totally eclipsed by their love for their countryman. I think the opposite is true of the rest of us.

[Max Mosley 2]

Indeed. They have huge chips on their shoulders too. Anyone who attacks the hapless Indian must naturally be racist, whereas those who support him above the caucasian drivers for exactly the same reason are apparently not.

[bajo39 0]

Indeed. They have huge chips on their shoulders too. Anyone who attacks the hapless Indian must naturally be racist

That's right, there is no possible explanation other than racism for criticizing the arrogant, inept, underqualified but record-paying promotional test driver.

[Max Mosley 2]

Yep. Fancy blaming the guy for crashing on a straight when the racist (Chinese) stewards hadn't told him to avoid the artificial grass.

[pabloh20 1]

Again you've misunderstood. A while back, I suggested that, far from me being racist, on this issue its actually you Indians who are. If I said I hated karty because he was Indian no doubt you'd all claim I was racist, but you only support him because of that! Talk about being hoised by one's own petard.

I would suggest you look up the difference between racism and patriotism. If you think that hating somebody because they are Indian is the same as an Indian supporting an F1 driver because they are from the same country, then you are gravely mistaken.

I agree with goferrarigo's posts - perhaps people should go back & see what he said. There is no reason for this thread to go on like it has.

[goferrarigo 0]

I agree with goferrarigo's posts - perhaps people should go back & see what he said. There is no reason for this thread to go on like it has.

Thank you at least i now know someone was atleast reading my posts(btw call me AJ)

[stopkidding 0]

That's right, there is no possible explanation other than racism for criticizing the arrogant, inept, underqualified but record-paying promotional test driver.

You are stuck record, playing the same track over and over and over again. I am eager to know if you are ever able to post one well qualified, intelligent argument over this topic. Rather than repeat the same sentence over and over and over again, why not make a point for a change?

I see intelligence is not your forte?

[pabloh20 1]

AJ - no, you weren't alone in your thinking and I certainly agree with your posts. However, I think it's probably all in vain.

[Max Mosley 2]

I would suggest you look up the difference between racism and patriotism. If you think that hating somebody because they are Indian is the same as an Indian supporting an F1 driver because they are from the same country, then you are gravely mistaken.

I would suggest you have a more open mind. You have simply been indoctrinated into thinking "patriotism good, racism bad". The same national and racial bias that leads to one is the basis for the other. If I were to offer Joe Bloggs $3million so that he could immediately replace Karty as Williams test driver purely because I preferred to see Brits doing well rather than Asians, would I be being patriotic or racist? What about if Frank always offered the drive to Brits, regardless of merit - patriotic or racist?

[goferrarigo 0]

AJ - no, you weren't alone in your thinking and I certainly agree with your posts. However, I think it's probably all in vain.

Unfortunatly it is. Even our mini discussion has not got any attension . I guess people just like to have a fight

[pabloh20 1]

I would suggest you have a more open mind. You have simply been indoctrinated into thinking "patriotism good, racism bad". The same national and racial bias that leads to one is the basis for the other. If I were to offer Joe Bloggs $3million so that he could immediately replace Karty as Williams test driver purely because I preferred to see Brits doing well rather than Asians, would I be being patriotic or racist? What about if Frank always offered the drive to Brits, regardless of merit - patriotic or racist?

I suggest you have a look at the difference between race and nationality - they don't always go hand in hand.

I have not been 'indoctrinated' into anything, I can actually think for myself and use my experiences of growing up to my experiences today to form an opinion. Again, I suggest you look up the difference between patriotism and racism as you seem to be very confused in the examples you gave.

As AJ says, though, I think we're fighting a losing battle. I obviously have a very different mind set to you with regards to racism and patriotism, etc. Something, looking at your previous comments, I am only to happy about.

Now you can try to blur the boundaries between what you try to call racism & patriotism, but you're not fooling anybody, certainly not me. I know what racism means to me and nothing you will say is going to change that. Again, referring to your previous comment, hating Indians because they're Indian is nothing like an Indian supporting an F1 driver because he's Indian. If you can't see the right/wrong in that statement, then I pity you.

[mock 0]

On the contrary I've answered all your questions and feel I have all the moral high ground. NK isn't good enough to be in F1. Thats it. Period.

Moderator, please move this post to the Cafe under 'Best Joke Ever'.

I would suggest you have a more open mind. You have simply been indoctrinated into thinking "patriotism good, racism bad". The same national and racial bias that leads to one is the basis for the other. If I were to offer Joe Bloggs $3million so that he could immediately replace Karty as Williams test driver purely because I preferred to see Brits doing well rather than Asians, would I be being patriotic or racist? What about if Frank always offered the drive to Brits, regardless of merit - patriotic or racist?

What you been drinking man ??? move this one as well

[Max Mosley 2]

I suggest you have a look at the difference between race and nationality - they don't always go hand in hand.

I have not been 'indoctrinated' into anything, I can actually think for myself and use my experiences of growing up to my experiences today to form an opinion. Again, I suggest you look up the difference between patriotism and racism as you seem to be very confused in the examples you gave.

As AJ says, though, I think we're fighting a losing battle. I obviously have a very different mind set to you with regards to racism and patriotism, etc. Something, looking at your previous comments, I am only to happy about.

Now you can try to blur the boundaries between what you try to call racism & patriotism, but you're not fooling anybody, certainly not me. I know what racism means to me and nothing you will say is going to change that. Again, referring to your previous comment, hating Indians because they're Indian is nothing like an Indian supporting an F1 driver because he's Indian. If you can't see the right/wrong in that statement, then I pity you.

One is simply a more extreme form of national/racial bias than the other. I think this topic requires a more intellectual approach than is possible on this forum. In fact patriotism is often criticised in ethics because it is a weak form of discrimination. Anyway, perhaps it is best the hoi polloi are indoctrinated. The alternative is probably worse.

Moderator, please move this post to the Cafe under 'Best Joke Ever'.

What you been drinking man ??? move this one as well

I will reply properly to the Indians when one of them takes up my main post's points. No doubt this will be left to the increasingly irate Cav.

[pumpdoc 2]

[monza gorilla 1]

Yep. It certainly is.

[bajo39 0]

I have not been 'indoctrinated' into anything, I can actually think for myself and use my experiences of growing up to my experiences today to form an opinion.

Really? Much of the forum sees you lot as arguing against what is plainly obvious, ie that Narain doesn't belong in F1, but in favour of your countryman and we all know how crazily nationalistic Indians are, and especially the media. I guess they would have quite an easy job of indoctrinating you lot given that F1 isn't even broadcast and the country has no history with the sport. Hmmm, maybe they have?

[Loser Boy 0]