Williams Retain Karthikeyan

[Kati 0]

Oh... NK's time on Jerez was 4 seconds slower than the first time... OK you can say, first time is MS, but anyways, he's one seconds slower than the last time but his...

[cavallino 2]

He's usually equal or faster on the rare occasions that he has tested with other Williams drivers. Must be on a different programme, single lap pace has never been his problem.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Cav, I appreciate your long post and I agree with most of your points. I didn't say that Narain never tested, just that he rarely tested. The true test will be next year. Will Narain be the primary tester? If so, then we will be able to judge his performances as a full tester. Succeed or fail, we will have a clear picture of Narain's worth. Right now, I see him as part of the TATA sponsorship deal with Williams.

Scott Speed is obviously not in F1 on merit, but to fulfill a Red Bull promise to put an American in F1. Of course that 'promise' was made to sell more Red Bulls in the States; a promise kept, nonetheless, and I applaud Red Bull for that.

On Narain's driving ability, he reminds me of Sato. Quick and talented, but too aggressive which causes him to overdrive his car. Strangely enough, both Narain and Sato did well in lower series. After the '08 rules come into effect, F1 cars will be more like those lower series (albeit with more power), so I wonder how Narain and Sato would do....

[stopkidding 0]

On Narain's driving ability, he reminds me of Sato. Quick and talented, but too aggressive which causes him to overdrive his car. Strangely enough, both Narain and Sato did well in lower series. After the '08 rules come into effect, F1 cars will be more like those lower series (albeit with more power), so I wonder how Narain and Sato would do....

Thank you. my job here is done. All I wanted was one reasonable assessment. Thats exactly how Narain is known within F1. "Quick but erratic", testing for a team like Williams will only make him a better driver. He may never race again and that is fine with me. But his greatest achievement would be making motorsports and F1 one of the most popular sport in India and making the path to F1 easier for the rest of the young Indian talent.

May this thread rest in peace...

[pabloh20 1]

nice long post(221) cav almost about half a page

Pabloh - sato has got only 3 pages or so nd this has gone to 8.

and the reason why sk and cav are fighting is this discussion of NK has been going on for long and allways has ended with the thread being locked. This topic keeps resurfacing in about 2-3 months. So very soon you shall another topic where again the same arguemnets will go on.

AJ - I see. As I said earlier, I can only take things how I have seen them since I've been here.

With regards to the Sato thread, it wasn't so much the length, more the venomous replies!!

[Autumnpuma 0]

Thank you. my job here is done. All I wanted was one reasonable assessment. Thats exactly how Narain is known within F1. "Quick but erratic", testing for a team like Williams will only make him a better driver. He may never race again and that is fine with me. But his greatest achievement would be making motorsports and F1 one of the most popular sport in India and making the path to F1 easier for the rest of the young Indian talent.

May this thread rest in peace...

Well, now, I wouldn't say you've educated me about Narain. I've always been of this opinion concerning his driving abilities. As for 'reasonable assessment', well, I always try for that. Those times I consider myself unreasonable, I admit it (re: Lewis Hamilton).

[stopkidding 0]

Well, now, I wouldn't say you've educated me about Narain. I've always been of this opinion concerning his driving abilities. As for 'reasonable assessment', well, I always try for that. Those times I consider myself unreasonable, I admit it (re: Lewis Hamilton).

I wasn't trying to educate you or anyone Puma, I don't think i am qualified enough to do that. The only thing I was doing to was relentless pursuing the topic until someone gave me a reason other that "he stinks"...

as for Hamilton, a tenth off PDLR at Jerez is impressive...

[bajo39 0]

On Narain's driving ability, he reminds me of Sato. Quick and talented, but too aggressive which causes him to overdrive his car.

Narain reminds me of Sato too but I think he is a lesser driver.

My recollection is that Narain was quicker than Monteiro, particularly in the first half of the year when I was calling for the Portugese's removal from the sport, but he slowed somewhat in the latter half. In any case, that does not make him quick in the absolute sense that you suggest. Ditto talent.

Too aggressive? Yeah, I'll subscribe to that. He also lacked judgement which can be attributed to a lack of experience and, more fundamentally, car control.

[goferrarigo 0]

i think this may be the first thread on NK which might die without being locked :-)

In the later half of th season monterio got the faster ca first so maybe for a few races ould be faster than him. But he was really agressive and tried to push the car to the limit

[Autumnpuma 0]

Narain reminds me of Sato too but I think he is a lesser driver.

My recollection is that Narain was quicker than Monteiro, particularly in the first half of the year when I was calling for the Portugese's removal from the sport, but he slowed somewhat in the latter half. In any case, that does not make him quick in the absolute sense that you suggest. Ditto talent.

Too aggressive? Yeah, I'll subscribe to that. He also lacked judgement which can be attributed to a lack of experience and, more fundamentally, car control.

I am of the opinion, and I know you agree (past posts) that the cars are a bit easier to drive than a Formula 1 car should be (my definition of 'should', of course). Ditto the tracks. There was a time when the cars and tracks were so difficult to drive that only the best would be in Formula 1. If we returned to that, natural selection would kill off the drivers with mediocre talent.

As for Narain's absolute speed, I haven't seen him up against a genuinely fast driver in similar equipment to guage that. Up against Montiero in a Jordan/Midland doesn't prove anything to me. I suppose I'm going off my 'gut instinct' when I say Narain has 'speed and talent'. Dan, your assessment may be more correct than mine....who knows...

[Max Mosley 2]

Ok this is going to be a long one, don't blame me if the forum is broken again tomorrow

The fact that the best drivers that may exist never get into F1 because they don't have the oppurtunity or cannot afford it doesn't sadden you? Doesn't the far bigger problem, that the entire talent pool of F1 is a few thousand, maybe a hundred thousand men, isn't that a far bigger problem than a single pay driver in your idealized quest for having the best 22/24 out of the over 6 billion people in the world driving in F1?

Practical? You are going to free the world of motorsport of pay drivers? Conveniently forgetting the fact that drivers like Alonso and Michael also made it originally as pay drivers. Are you aware that the prime reason Jordan gave Michael a shot was the money. Do you thing it is a coincidence that the trio of Wendlinger(sp?), Frentzen and Schumacher, all Germans were backed by a German company. Do you think it is a coincidence that BMW are interested in Ralf more than Trulli? You pretend to be arguing a principle, but you aren't, you are just picking one manifestation and arguing against it. That is just personal bias, whatever it may be founded on. How exactly are you going to solve the problem that you need money to get into motorsport? By protesting against one pay driver?

We should all support one or two drivers then? Have you ever used this argument against anybody except Karthikeyan (and maybe Sato) supporters on this board?

That's the way it works. Saying you dislike a driver because he is Indian doesn't really make you racist as long as you have nothing to do with the decision making process in F1. Liking or disliking drivers isn't based on any rational grounds, just about everyone including your loyal yes man/alternate identity bajo supports their local boy. But don't forget the nuances. Saying you hate him because he is Indian increases the possibility that your fanaticism extends beyond sport, just like saying that you would exclusively support Indian drivers increases that too. You would have noticed that none of the members here is primarily a Narain supporter, every single one who supports them supports another driver/ team too, and most of the time to a greater extent.

Ironically enough, he isn't in F1, unlike the 6 pay drivers on the current grid that you strangely ignore. You take more interest in protesting a driver who is not in F1, rather than ones who are, and who I presume you object to on principle. I don't remember you making these remarks in the Scott Speed threads, or the Monteiro threads or Albers threads/ discussions. No, you solely pick on any thread about NK, and exhort those 'principles.

Where exactly has this 3 million figure come from? It may be right, however I need a source, a reliable one.

Again you are mistaken. Tata do not support Narain solely because he is Indian, it is based on a variety of factors. For example Deutsche Vermogensberatung (wrong spelling surely) won't suddenly switch their support to the same extent to the next available German driver when Michael retires. If Narain had to stop racing for some reason, Tata won't suddenly offer the same amount of money to appoint the next available Indian driver as a test driver for Williams. Him being Indian is one of the factors - which is not unique in F1, just like Nick Heidfeld being German is a factor in him getting a BMW drive.

Speak for yourself.

It's all a strange feeling of deja vu, hearing the same lame arguments from you, and having to make the same point over and over again.

That is not even the point under discussion..

No more than any other country. Actually I feel that Australians are more so - just an observation.

If you mean India, what gave you that strange idea India get's all qualifying and races live - more than I can say about Britain and Australia.

A rather revealing one, if I do say so myself.

Define that view plese, let us draw our lines. Whether Narain deserves a place in F1 or not is hardly the argument - many Indian posters have argued that he deserves it as much as any other pay driver on the grid. Are you contradicting that, that he deserves it less than other pay drivers? If not, what is the precise opinion that I hold that makes me part of that group, I am quite perturbed.

So has everyone else apparently

and..

rather ironical isn't it?

It isn't about what we'd like, it's about what is practical. You may reply to my previous comment about eradicating all financial influence from motorsport which I made to Murray above before I go further into this.

Actually Narain is paid to be a test driver, and Tata pay for the sponsorship. The average wages for a test driver are below a million, and the sum for NK is $250,000 or so iirc. I challenge you to prove that any test driver is paid 3-5 million, quite a strange figure as I believe Alonso's contract at Renault was worth 6 or 7 million a year?

Actually most test drivers have little chance of ever driving in F1 again, so does Narain. So I don't see what you are trying to prove there.

Now now they wouldn't want to antagonize the British contingent would they?

Bajo has used false figures in the past - see here, I wouldn't trust the 3 million figure yet, even if that figure is true, you would of course have to deduct the legitimate value of the Tata sponsorship - the other sponsors do not have a test driver of their choice driving for Williams. What you have left then, after deducting Narain's salary is the effective incentive Williams had to have Narain driving for them. The 10 million figure, as I said above is of course pure hogwash.

Wurz. More experience, more testing experience, is or at least was a better driver too.

They are. Unlike last year, where he was only paid when Jordan got those points.

Wurz might be the better tester, however that is not adequate reason to conclude that he is not contributing. I remember Ashwin putting a quote from Sam Michael indicating that he is - though of course you could argue that that is PR speak.

Scott Speed's performance over the year hasn't been any more impressive than Narain's considering the equipment he has had, he is equallt undeserving of a place solely on merit.

Is it from any respectable publication - autosport, speedTV, even ITV?

It's not solely this thread, there is a long history. A quick search would show you.

No. Try it. I have made threads about Speed, Monteiro etc., they have barely gone for a page. Yet as soon as it's NK some people decide to take a stand 'on principle'.

Its a seriously impressive post Cav, albeit largely because of its length. Mind you I've been known to impress people with length (and girth) too so I can't hold that against you.

The answer to your first question is "yes" as I've already said: it does sadden me deeply that life is so unfair in so many ways, many of which are far more unjust than the presence of Karty in F1. In the cafe I'd like to discuss that with you in greater detail whenever you wish. However if we could make F1 more meritocratic in any way that would be a good thing, imho.

Now, I believe that we can first remove at least some undeserving pay drivers by educating their fans. For instance I have many Japanese friends (at uni) and they have all been shown just how bad SA's drivers are. Consequently they now agree that Honda shouldn't have caved in to popular pressure by setting up the team. If only all Japanese were similarly educated by a more dedicated F1 fan friend the team would soon disappear.

Removing all pay drivers is harder to do, but also less important because I don't care as much if Schumi wants to pay for instance, as long as he deserves the ride he's paying for. Nevertheless I would radically change F1 by removing all teams, or at least giving them standardised cars, which would solve the problem and have many other benefits. In the medium term all thats likely to happen is that costs can be reduced, which will hopefully lessen the need for pay drivers.

Once and for all, I'm only picking on Karty and Sato because their fans refuse to accept our criticism (just check the length of this thread). Show me someone who thinks Yamamoto is the bees knees and I'll do the same. Btw read the Massa thread and see me attack deluded Schumi supporters. Read the NH/RK thread (I think) and see me attack a few remaining JV fanatics. Karty probably does get the worst treatment because any criticism of him is used to accuse us of racism.

Which brings us to the most interesting issue. I'm kind of surprised that you say we can hate Karty purely for his skin colour and not be racist. If thats the case, why are we always called racists, given that we actually dislike Karty for altogether more reasonable factors?

Oh and goferarrigo: hell no.

[bajo39 0]

Mind you I've been known to impress people with length (and girth) too so I can't hold that against you.

Oh Murray, that's priceless!

[bajo39 0]

I am of the opinion, and I know you agree (past posts) that the cars are a bit easier to drive than a Formula 1 car should be (my definition of 'should', of course). Ditto the tracks. There was a time when the cars and tracks were so difficult to drive that only the best would be in Formula 1. If we returned to that, natural selection would kill off the drivers with mediocre talent.

Of course you and I both agree that the cars nowadays are far too sorted at the limit and, more generally, far too easy to drive in any circumstances. However, the EJ15 was regarded as a terrible handful for the drivers but I suspect part of this is down to their relative lack of car control, particularly Narain's...

[pabloh20 1]

Of course you and I both agree that the cars nowadays are far too sorted at the limit and, more generally, far too easy to drive in any circumstances. However, the EJ15 was regarded as a terrible handful for the drivers but I suspect part of this is down to their relative lack of car control, particularly Narain's...

The very reason why I will ultimately reserve judgement on many of today's drivers until 08, presuming the FIA don't do a turnaround on the changes in the meantime. We all have our 'suspects' who we think might be a cut above the rest, but hopefully 08 will be the acid test.

[Max Mosley 2]

Oh Murray, that's priceless!

Cheers Dan. I'm sure you're guilty of the same crime. Some of us just can't do anything about it.

[pumpdoc 2]

Cheers Dan. I'm sure you're guilty of the same crime. Some of us just can't do anything about it.

You young punks don't even know what it's like to make a woman cry, think 'Young Frankinstien'

[Max Mosley 2]

Ain't nobody never tell you Americans that big guns are dangerous? Ride with care cow girls, lest it end in tears.

[pumpdoc 2]

Ain't nobody never tell you Americans that big guns are dangerous? Handle with care cow girls, lest it end in tears.

"you make a rich girl beg, you make a poor girl squeal"

[Max Mosley 2]

Awesome Bruce!

(Just noticed I missed an open goal above. Now rectified.) Any way, where's a rich girl when you need one...

[Autumnpuma 0]

Of course you and I both agree that the cars nowadays are far too sorted at the limit and, more generally, far too easy to drive in any circumstances. However, the EJ15 was regarded as a terrible handful for the drivers but I suspect part of this is down to their relative lack of car control, particularly Narain's...

One driver I loved watching in a Jordan was Pantano. He managed to slide that beast in some corners....the slow way to drive the cars these days, but very fun to watch!

On the ChampCar Panoz chassis, one thing the article mentions is that it survived the FIA 'Formula 1' crash tests. Twice. As a friend of mine put it, that chassis said "Hit me again, Spike, and this time put some stank into it!". It also incorporates the latest aero principles that have appeared in F1 lately. This means two things to me:

1) ChampCar (CART) is rising like a phoenix from it's own ashes and is proof positive that the series will be around for a while.

2) That Panoz may be gearing up to supply chassis for Formula 1 when the rules loosen in '08.....

All of this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, but who the hell cares....

[mock 0]

Too aggressive? Yeah, I'll subscribe to that. He also lacked judgement which can be attributed to a lack of experience and, more fundamentally, car control.

I would love to know which channel you were watching (seriously). The channels here only show the back markers for maybe 5 - 6 minutes for the entire race duration (that might be exaggerating too), including when they are being overtaken when they are being lapped. In fact the only time I remember seeing Minardis on the TV were when they spun off or had a spectacular failure, or in the pits, or when they were being lapped.

Therefore I have been trying to understand where the 'car control' statement came from, since I did not see it myself. The best drivers would struggle to drive a car like the EJ15 fast. In fact even the best drivers struggle with cars which are supposed to be front gridders when they get 'twitchy'.

NK had more than his fair share of mechanical problems, and he had a couple of crashes too, but then even guys like FA / JB crashed in similar locations (was that Monza or Canada). The only aberrations I can remember where in China 2004 - slipping off on a straight cannot be attributed to anything except the car, and when he tried an overtake manouever on JV (Forget which race) in his Sauber, again, even very good drivers will probably go off on an ambitious overtaking move. MS himself has taken enough short cuts in a bid to get past a driver in front.

Just curious since you are a self proclaimed expert on NK's driving abilities.................

Long live this thread !!!!

[pumpdoc 2]

I would love to know which channel you were watching (seriously). The channels here only show the back markers for maybe 5 - 6 minutes for the entire race duration (that might be exaggerating too), including when they are being overtaken when they are being lapped. In fact the only time I remember seeing Minardis on the TV were when they spun off or had a spectacular failure, or in the pits, or when they were being lapped.

Therefore I have been trying to understand where the 'car control' statement came from, since I did not see it myself. The best drivers would struggle to drive a car like the EJ15 fast. In fact even the best drivers struggle with cars which are supposed to be front gridders when they get 'twitchy'.

NK had more than his fair share of mechanical problems, and he had a couple of crashes too, but then even guys like FA / JB crashed in similar locations (was that Monza or Canada). The only aberrations I can remember where in China 2004 - slipping off on a straight cannot be attributed to anything except the car, and when he tried an overtake manouever on JV (Forget which race) in his Sauber, again, even very good drivers will probably go off on an ambitious overtaking move. MS himself has taken enough short cuts in a bid to get past a driver in front.

Just curious since you are a self proclaimed expert on NK's driving abilities.................

Long live this thread

If this thread reaches 10 pages I'm deleting it

[Jem of the Shire 0]

its a karthikeyan thread, it'll last for months. I was bored the other day and was looking at race results from 2005 and got reminded of patrick friesacher - I had completely erased that guy from my memory. Wonder where he is now

[Loser Boy 0]

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_new...es_art_id=29683

the site shows test times for 11 oct , jerez. NK slower than Wurz by 1.4 secs approx.

[pumpdoc 2]

its a karthikeyan thread, it'll last for months. I was bored the other day and was looking at race results from 2005 and got reminded of patrick friesacher - I had completely erased that guy from my memory. Wonder where he is now

Driving a lorry somewhere