Today In F1

[dribbler 6]

One more thing - how about Kovi??????

Why is he not "leadership" material? Is it because he's not in a top team, or because he's not a former WDC?

For me - he's dragging Lotus up by the testicles. Bit by bit. Not underachieving in a top team like Alonso and Schumi.

EDIT - One more thing. If you had to choose any member of your F1 team to have "leadership" qualities who would it be?

For me it would be the team principle every time - not a driver. Never a driver.

I don't see that quality in Kovalainen. If anyone is moving Lotus along it's more likely to be Mike Rotweiller.

Surely one of the biggest things we are forgetting to mention is that any driver with leadership qualities first of all has to lead his team mate. That's why Alonos is given so much praise and why Schumacher is viewed less so.

If you are delivering the goods, it falls on the guys building your chariot to make it go faster. That's how you lead - by example.

[Caesar 0]

Bollocks! You get different kind of leaders, those that's extrovert in their saying or actions (which Alonso is a perfect example of), those that lead by example etc etc. I read an interesting article the other day when Adrian Newey stated the amount of hours Vettel works, till late at night, how he tries to improve the car even further. Trying to make the tyres work better. JA says of his excellent working relationship with the Pirelli team and how they respect Vettel. To Quote James Allen..."Vettel has an excellent relationship with Pirelli management. In Germany he was with them on Saturday night until 10-30pm and they speak very highly of him." If those are not qualitites of a great leader in driving the team forwards then I really don't know. Plus he's winning and has his 2nd title in the bag already... how's that for team morale... Hey guys, How about reading my signature line for a change????

Stephano took a dig at Vettel but in the end it's really him (as a leader) that comes up short....

i have inside information and i know for sure that they were drinking that night in germany and that is why vettel wasn't very charming tomorow during the race, and just to mention that kimi would cope much better with that kind of "technical meeting" and with the race day after.

pirelli's would love him and he would love pirelli's.

i don't read signature lines and, that's what i am talking about

[yurp 0]

I don't see that quality in Kovalainen. If anyone is moving Lotus along it's more likely to be Mike Rotweiller.

Surely one of the biggest things we are forgetting to mention is that any driver with leadership qualities first of all has to lead his team mate. That's why Alonos is given so much praise and why Schumacher is viewed less so.

If you are delivering the goods, it falls on the guys building your chariot to make it go faster. That's how you lead - by example.

But hang on Steve. If we use those as our definitions of "leadership", then Vettel is just as good a leader as Alonso and Schumi. He is both leading his team mate and leading the WDC and delivering time and time again with pole positions and race wins - thus leading by example.

Again - Frankly I think this "leadership" talk is guff. It's somewhat like the what is "faith" question that always crops up when discussing religion. It becomes a vague term used to define all sorts of wishy washy traits which can be whatever someone wants them to be at that particular point in the discussion - often quite contradictorily so. Yes, we all have a vague (though we think it's precise) idea of what we think of as "leadership". It's probably something to do with authority, being listened to, giving orders rather than taking them etc etc. We can make check lists and charts of people's "leadership quotient" but it all turns into management talk (i.e. bulls##t) in the end.

My first issue with all this is that "leadership" is different things to different people, so we can argue that the label be applied to pretty much anyone depending on which evidence we use and which definition suits us in each instance. Brad can argue that his brand of leadership fits Vettel just as convincingly as Andres can argue that his brand fits Alonso. And they can both be right, because what they are talking about it two different sets of values. So again - the comment from Stefano is an opinion to which I attribute absolutely no weight and about which I give not one iota of faeces.

My second contention is that any definition of "leadership" is generally then construed (unquestioningly) as a positive thing when often it's not. I would much prefer to have a team principle with what I define as "leadership" qualities and a driver who has a good "work ethic". But again - that depends on my definition of those terms. Personally I think Schumi, Vettel and Alonso all have extremely good "work ethics" and that's what makes them great drivers. I think RB has great "leaders" in Adrian Newey (in the back room) and Horner + Newey (on the pit wall). That's the right make up of a team for me. The drivers know that they are subordinate to the team and the team is run by their superiors. They should work bloody hard to retain their seat in the best car on the grid, and should appreciate (as I think they do) that that car was produced by other members of the team who they are in no position to "lead" but instead should instead "thank". That's how it should be.

That Stefano talks about what a great leader Alonso is, hints to me (and perhaps this is just my slanted view of things) that he himself is lacking in that department. That's perhaps why Ferrari haven't impressed over the last few years. Todt + Brawn were leaders in Ferrari, Schumi had an incredible work ethic - That's why it worked so well. Perhaps Stefano need to start "leading". That should really be his role.

EDIT - here's a silly smiley to make sure you know I'm not being too utterly serious about all this...

[dribbler 6]

But hang on Steve. If we use those as our definitions of "leadership", then Vettel is just as good a leader as Alonso and Schumi. He is both leading his team mate and leading the WDC and delivering time and time again with pole positions and race wins - thus leading by example.

Again - Frankly I think this "leadership" talk is guff. It's somewhat like the what is "faith" question that always crops up when discussing religion. It becomes a vague term used to define all sorts of wishy washy traits which can be whatever someone wants them to be at that particular point in the discussion - often quite contradictorily so. Yes, we all have a vague (though we think it's precise) idea of what we think of as "leadership". It's probably something to do with authority, being listened to, giving orders rather than taking them etc etc. We can make check lists and charts of people's "leadership quotient" but it all turns into management talk (i.e. bulls##t) in the end.

My first issue with all this is that "leadership" is different things to different people, so we can argue that the label be applied to pretty much anyone depending on which evidence we use and which definition suits us in each instance. Brad can argue that his brand of leadership fits Vettel just as convincingly as Andres can argue that his brand fits Alonso. And they can both be right, because what they are talking about it two different sets of values. So again - the comment from Stefano is an opinion to which I attribute absolutely no weight and about which I give not one iota of faeces.

My second contention is that any definition of "leadership" is generally then construed (unquestioningly) as a positive thing when often it's not. I would much prefer to have a team principle with what I define as "leadership" qualities and a driver who has a good "work ethic". But again - that depends on my definition of those terms. Personally I think Schumi, Vettel and Alonso all have extremely good "work ethics" and that's what makes them great drivers. I think RB has great "leaders" in Adrian Newey (in the back room) and Horner + Newey (on the pit wall). That's the right make up of a team for me. The drivers know that they are subordinate to the team and the team is run by their superiors. They should work bloody hard to retain their seat in the best car on the grid, and should appreciate (as I think they do) that that car was produced by other members of the team who they are in no position to "lead" but instead should instead "thank". That's how it should be.

That Stefano talks about what a great leader Alonso is, hints to me (and perhaps this is just my slanted view of things) that he himself is lacking in that department. That's perhaps why Ferrari haven't impressed over the last few years. Todt + Brawn were leaders in Ferrari, Schumi had an incredible work ethic - That's why it worked so well. Perhaps Stefano need to start "leading". That should really be his role.

EDIT - here's a silly smiley to make sure you know I'm not being too utterly serious about all this...

I agree with you about Vettel and all the other stuff too. But my issue was with Kovalainen. Yes, he is better than Trulli but he is still suffering from the beating he got at McLaren.

In summary, no driver can be the leader of a team. Their job is to drive. If they drive a very good car very well, they may be perceived as a leader. But it's all a bit misleading.

Successfull drivers are merely the great sales people in a company; they deliver the results which impact and benefit the rest of the company. As a result, the steal the lime light. But if the product (read: car) is sh!t, they will never sell a thing. Equally, just because they are making the sales, doesn't mean they are necessarily 'leading'. That is often the job of the MD. There are also unsung heroes who will never receive the plaudits they deserve. Somewhat controversially, I believe this to be the case at Red Bull. One designer does not a great car make (where was Newey dominance in 2001-2006?)

I know it's more complicated than that but

A. I am not moved to analyse it in the impressively finite detail that you have and

B. I like analogies, so it was a good chance to create one

C. Complications quickly lead me to crack open a bottle of red. The comments and observations that follow, although somewhat colourful, are even more meaningless than this post.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

i have inside information and i know for sure that they were drinking that night in germany and that is why vettel wasn't very charming tomorow during the race, and just to mention that kimi would cope much better with that kind of "technical meeting" and with the race day after.

pirelli's would love him and he would love pirelli's.

i don't read signature lines and, that's what i am talking about

[BradSpeedMan 6]

But hang on Steve. If we use those as our definitions of "leadership", then Vettel is just as good a leader as Alonso and Schumi. He is both leading his team mate and leading the WDC and delivering time and time again with pole positions and race wins - thus leading by example.

Again - Frankly I think this "leadership" talk is guff. It's somewhat like the what is "faith" question that always crops up when discussing religion. It becomes a vague term used to define all sorts of wishy washy traits which can be whatever someone wants them to be at that particular point in the discussion - often quite contradictorily so. Yes, we all have a vague (though we think it's precise) idea of what we think of as "leadership". It's probably something to do with authority, being listened to, giving orders rather than taking them etc etc. We can make check lists and charts of people's "leadership quotient" but it all turns into management talk (i.e. bulls##t) in the end.

My first issue with all this is that "leadership" is different things to different people, so we can argue that the label be applied to pretty much anyone depending on which evidence we use and which definition suits us in each instance. Brad can argue that his brand of leadership fits Vettel just as convincingly as Andres can argue that his brand fits Alonso. And they can both be right, because what they are talking about it two different sets of values. So again - the comment from Stefano is an opinion to which I attribute absolutely no weight and about which I give not one iota of faeces.

My second contention is that any definition of "leadership" is generally then construed (unquestioningly) as a positive thing when often it's not. I would much prefer to have a team principle with what I define as "leadership" qualities and a driver who has a good "work ethic". But again - that depends on my definition of those terms. Personally I think Schumi, Vettel and Alonso all have extremely good "work ethics" and that's what makes them great drivers. I think RB has great "leaders" in Adrian Newey (in the back room) and Horner + Newey (on the pit wall). That's the right make up of a team for me. The drivers know that they are subordinate to the team and the team is run by their superiors. They should work bloody hard to retain their seat in the best car on the grid, and should appreciate (as I think they do) that that car was produced by other members of the team who they are in no position to "lead" but instead should instead "thank". That's how it should be.

That Stefano talks about what a great leader Alonso is, hints to me (and perhaps this is just my slanted view of things) that he himself is lacking in that department. That's perhaps why Ferrari haven't impressed over the last few years. Todt + Brawn were leaders in Ferrari, Schumi had an incredible work ethic - That's why it worked so well. Perhaps Stefano need to start "leading". That should really be his role.

EDIT - here's a silly smiley to make sure you know I'm not being too utterly serious about all this...

lovely stuff

[BradSpeedMan 6]

BE AFRAID! BE VERY AFRAID!!!

http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/390730/Ferrari_building_unbeatable_structure/

[AleHop 0]

No excuses for Ferrari next season.

They have to deliver a competitive car from race one, winning a championship is a different matter.

[yurp 0]

I agree with you about Vettel and all the other stuff too. But my issue was with Kovalainen. Yes, he is better than Trulli but he is still suffering from the beating he got at McLaren.

In summary, no driver can be the leader of a team. Their job is to drive. If they drive a very good car very well, they may be perceived as a leader. But it's all a bit misleading.

Successfull drivers are merely the great sales people in a company; they deliver the results which impact and benefit the rest of the company. As a result, the steal the lime light. But if the product (read: car) is sh!t, they will never sell a thing. Equally, just because they are making the sales, doesn't mean they are necessarily 'leading'. That is often the job of the MD. There are also unsung heroes who will never receive the plaudits they deserve. Somewhat controversially, I believe this to be the case at Red Bull. One designer does not a great car make (where was Newey dominance in 2001-2006?)

I know it's more complicated than that but

A. I am not moved to analyse it in the impressively finite detail that you have and

B. I like analogies, so it was a good chance to create one

C. Complications quickly lead me to crack open a bottle of red. The comments and observations that follow, although somewhat colourful, are even more meaningless than this post.

Yep - I tend to agree - Kovi was thrown in there as more a a hypothetical. i.e. he fitted the definition of leadership that I wanted to follow at that particular moment in time thus showing that "leadership" is ethereal enough to suit anyone's stupid opinions (in this case my own).

As for AB and C

A - I like my fine tooth comb.

B - Me too.

C - Double me too - nay triple. However meaninglessness often has its own subtle meaning which flies in the face of meaningfulness.

[Rainmaster 7]

yes, we all know he is faking

In a sense he is faking. But everyone is fake to a certain extent in life, in that we put on different mannerisms around different people, depending on what we want them to see (e.g. most people are different at work than with friends, family, or on a forum even..). The point is, don't believe that just because you rarely see Vettel kicking up a fuss in public he doesn't do it behind closed doors (this relates to the whole "pushing the team" concept). You have to separate a public persona from a private personality! And I think there is some good evidence that privately, Vettel is a very demanding driver who speaks his mind to the team and knows what he wants, and I think they respect him a lot (which is not to say he isn't a nice guy, but it is possible to be nice and have an edge..).

Maybe Stefano had a point in that he can't be as good as Alonso in this "leadership" regard due to experience, although of course having never worked with Vettel he has no actual basis for that, other than the initial idea that experience is everything; the problem with that is Vettel already became the youngest champion and showed himself to be exceptional, for his age/experience, so it doesn't seem like great logic to assess him on the "experience" front. By that logic you might have to say "but he can't win back to back championships, he hasn't got the experience"! Yet here we are. Or is the argument that despite winning a championship (nearly two), Vettel isn't very demmanding or respected/listened to in the garage/factory, and doesn't pay attention to the details like Schumi and Alonso? Seems problematic to me In short, I think most drivers would struggle to be a leader at that age and experience level and this (fact) is the root of SD's comment, but it is so obvious that Vettel is not "most drivers" from what he already did.

SD's comment also ignores the differences between Ferrari and Red Bull. For a start, RB are supremely successful so Vettel doesn't need to carry the team like Alonso has had to do so much with Ferrari after having a bad weekend. When RB are in a bad moment, then we can judge if Vettel does that as well as Alonso. Also, Ferrari are extremely driver centric it seems, first with Schumacher, and now with putting all of their eggs in the Alonso basket. Red Bull and Mclaren are different, I think, and don't seem to rely so much on their driver(s) for inspiration or morale so much, or talk about their drivers in the same sort of way as Ferrari (and perhaps this reveals where Ferrari are really lacking, in actual leadership at the top of the team, as has been suggested..). Just a few matters of perception to think about which probably influence our ideas about Alonso and Vettel (as well as the difference between Alonso's temperament and Vettel's that I wrote about before).

On Adam's point I agree it is difficult to define what exactly this whole leadership thing is, as it is a qualitative concept, impossible to really measure and based on our own perceptions. It is even harder to know what difference it makes to a team, if any. But charisma is a bit like that too, yet some have it and some don't. And I think it is the same with this "leadership" concept; just because we can't really fully define/measure it, doesn't mean it isn't there! Maybe any discussion cannot go that far or be very meaningful, but hey, what's new here?

[HandyNZL 1]

Where was Newey's dominance in 2001-2006? hmmm..

Well there was this really Sh#t driver Raikkonnen driving for McLaren back then and he just couldn't drive to save himself...and that Coulthard try hard was racing for them too, and he wasn't much chop either, and then there was too much ballast put into the car in the form of Montoya...in 2006 Newey decided that the drivers were ****ing up his beautiful cars too much and he trotted off to RBR and in a few years time he turned them from never rans to 2x WDC and 2x WCC...

Meanwhile, at the dastardly Red team, which has its headquarters at Ferrari and Co, the Red Baron was helped to five WDC by the FIA, non-competitive teammates and and a whole raft of other illegal-legalities, up until the even more sinister Blue team came on the scene with a young upstart that would tickle Herr Schumacher-stompen-fuhrer on the backside with his monolithic mono-brow whilst his team manager cavorted around the pitlanes in nothing but a gold sequins g-string budgie smuggler, thus putting them completely off their game and thus allowing the Blue team to one up the Red team.

Yes...yes...I believe that to be a fair and accurate account of the years 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2006.

[Caesar 0]

In a sense he is faking. But everyone is fake to a certain extent in life, in that we put on different mannerisms around different people, depending on what we want them to see (e.g. most people are different at work than with friends, family, or on a forum even..). The point is, don't believe that just because you rarely see Vettel kicking up a fuss in public he doesn't do it behind closed doors (this relates to the whole "pushing the team" concept). You have to separate a public persona from a private personality! And I think there is some good evidence that privately, Vettel is a very demanding driver who speaks his mind to the team and knows what he wants, and I think they respect him a lot (which is not to say he isn't a nice guy, but it is possible to be nice and have an edge..).

Maybe Stefano had a point in that he can't be as good as Alonso in this "leadership" regard due to experience, although of course having never worked with Vettel he has no actual basis for that, other than the initial idea that experience is everything; the problem with that is Vettel already became the youngest champion and showed himself to be exceptional, for his age/experience, so it doesn't seem like great logic to assess him on the "experience" front. By that logic you might have to say "but he can't win back to back championships, he hasn't got the experience"! Yet here we are. Or is the argument that despite winning a championship (nearly two), Vettel isn't very demmanding or respected/listened to in the garage/factory, and doesn't pay attention to the details like Schumi and Alonso? Seems problematic to me In short, I think most drivers would struggle to be a leader at that age and experience level and this (fact) is the root of SD's comment, but it is so obvious that Vettel is not "most drivers" from what he already did.

SD's comment also ignores the differences between Ferrari and Red Bull. For a start, RB are supremely successful so Vettel doesn't need to carry the team like Alonso has had to do so much with Ferrari after having a bad weekend. When RB are in a bad moment, then we can judge if Vettel does that as well as Alonso. Also, Ferrari are extremely driver centric it seems, first with Schumacher, and now with putting all of their eggs in the Alonso basket. Red Bull and Mclaren are different, I think, and don't seem to rely so much on their driver(s) for inspiration or morale so much, or talk about their drivers in the same sort of way as Ferrari (and perhaps this reveals where Ferrari are really lacking, in actual leadership at the top of the team, as has been suggested..). Just a few matters of perception to think about which probably influence our ideas about Alonso and Vettel (as well as the difference between Alonso's temperament and Vettel's that I wrote about before).

On Adam's point I agree it is difficult to define what exactly this whole leadership thing is, as it is a qualitative concept, impossible to really measure and based on our own perceptions. It is even harder to know what difference it makes to a team, if any. But charisma is a bit like that too, yet some have it and some don't. And I think it is the same with this "leadership" concept; just because we can't really fully define/measure it, doesn't mean it isn't there! Maybe any discussion cannot go that far or be very meaningful, but hey, what's new here?

i think that schumi and alonso are better leaders because they are both married and leading the team is the only thing that their wives let them lead.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

i think that schumi and alonso are better leaders because they are both married and leading the team is the only thing that their wives let them lead.

[yurp 0]

i think that schumi and alonso are better leaders because they are both married and leading the team is the only thing that their wives let them lead.

Hey! My wife lets me lead when it comes to what to watch on TV no hang on, choosing dinner, hmm maybe wearing what I want? no but definitely when I go to bed, okay then when we have sex.

Damn!

[Caesar 0]

Hey! My wife lets me lead when it comes to what to watch on TV no hang on, choosing dinner, hmm maybe wearing what I want? no but definitely when I go to bed, okay then when we have sex.

Damn!

Hobbies that include clutch, suspension, gears, differential, tyres, diffusers.... are mostly safe areas when husband want's to have some free space (life) , otherwise you have to whack your fist on the table and decidedly say: " i have decided that we will do as you say, my dear"

[AleHop 0]

So remember, just because Vettel is all smiles and you rarely see him chucking his toys out of the pram, don't assume he hasn't got that drive and inner steel and doesn't push the team when he is in the garage/factory. That is a foolish idea. This is by no means an Alonso criticism, just pointing out that there is more to it than meets the eye and different approaches.

I think Vettel is all smiles when he wins, and only when it happens, like many other great champions. What he does in the garage we don't know, we can only speculate about things like that when we're talking about Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso... What Alonso said about Vettel is pretty much what I think about the young German. A deeper analysis about him is probably quite difficult for us, we can just bring quotes and our opinions and feelings which we are all entitled to but can be as accurate as Ferrari's weather radar.

[Delta 0]

I totally agree with Christian Horner on this one. Talk is cheap, and in general over the past 3 seasons Red Bull and McLaren have had the beating of Ferrari. Having a star driver is not enough to produce results these days, and Ferrari need to produce a great deal more than they have been of late to stand a chance of winning another title. And personally, I believe that there is plenty left in Red Bull and Vettel to carry on winning, even without blown diffusers.

[HandyNZL 1]

Rumour has it, Sam Michael is moving to McLaren from next year.

There goes any hope Hamilton or Button will become double world champions.

For those unable to read between the lines, I do not rate Michael at all.

[monza gorilla 1]

Ah, though, but. All that's between your lines is empty space. Anyway, he's going as sporting director which probably means strategist. They have to find some way of keeping him away from the car design, after all.

[Quiet One 15]

With no big variations expected in the drivers market and an already finished championship, silly season has been downgraded from silly to merely 'idiotical'

Alonso denies swearing at Vettel

Sebastian Vettel with Fernando Alonso

Sep.22 (GMM) Sebastian Vettel was sworn at by Ferrari’s Fernando Alonso after winning the Italian grand prix at Monza two weeks ago, but the Spaniard denies the reports.

Bild-Zeitung claims Alonso whispered in the ear of, championship leader and race winner, Vettel before the Monza podium: “F*ck you, my boy”.

Earlier, to the passionate Tifosi’s chagrin, Vettel had passed Alonso to lead the race, a move the Red Bull driver described as “very hard but fair”.

Afterwards, the energy drinks team’s outspoken Dr Helmut Marko said it was “good to show Alonso how the wind blows”.

Double world champion Alonso however denies Bild’s claim that he insulted Vettel.

“We chatted briefly but it was quite normal and friendly,” said the Spaniard.

Bild said Vettel would not comment.

But in an interview with the German broadcaster RTL, he talked about having the respect of his rivals.

“It’s important to me that I can feel it,” said the 24-year-old, “even if you have had an extremely tough race.”

Source:

http://www.yallaf1.com/2011/09/22/alonso-denies-swearing-at-vettel-at-monza/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Yallaf1com+%28YallaF1.com%29

Somehow I don't expect this to be the next Crashgate...

[yurp 0]

Somehow I don't expect this to be the next Crashgate...

"F***gate" does have a ring to it though...

...ewwww - not like THAT!

[dribbler 6]

I see that Heinz Harald Frentzen is one of the race stewards this weekend. Good luck Schumi if you try another 'Monza', with the guy who's girl you stole watching....

[Caesar 0]

I see that Heinz Harald Frentzen is one of the race stewards this weekend. Good luck Schumi if you try another 'Monza', with the guy who's girl you stole watching....

schumi didn't stole just girlfriend from heinz. you didn't mention big-money contracts, cars,f1 teams, glory , wins.....

i think that heinz is a , how should i say it, .. a bit slow, on the track and off the track. schumi will sell him few more tricks before heinze's "control tower " notices it.

so, it will be like this: "racing incident involving schumi's car will be investigated after the race"

[Argento Reloaded 1]

Webber blamed Pirelli tyres for his bad starts... ( that why Seb and nando are using rebadged Michelin and Brigestone tyres:eusa_think:)

[Caesar 0]

some SF bullsh!t fantasy made by peter windsor : link